R L513 and Subclades

If L513+ DF1+ CTS5936+ Z249+ or DYS406s1=11 DYS617=13 - JOIN>>>
  • 1747 members

About us


Oct 19 2019: Yahoo Groups has announced another round of feature removal so we are moving the official communications to Facebook's R1b.L513 forum at http:www.facebook.com/groups/R1b.L513/ This project's FTDNA Activity Feed is still available and will be supported by project administrators so that is an alternative.

Oct 5 2019: We now have 1469 project members. I engaged in a major recruiting effort since mid-September so we picked up about 200 people. I'm also now tracking 11-13 STR combo people who are proven NOT L513. These would be situations where STR value "converge" to give us a false prediction. Of course, SNP testing is needed always to confirm haplogroup/branch assignment.

9 14 2018: The project "About Us" Background/welcome, Goals, Results and News web pages have been significantly updated. It's important to look at the About/Results web page as the latest findings are summarized there.

9 1 2018: We now have 1265 project members. 638 have Y111 STRs and 348 have completed Big Y Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) testing. These are the gold standards for the project. We'd like everyone who can to do Big Y500, which gets you Y111 STRs too. If that is too expensive, upgrade to as many STRs as you can until you get to Y111 and then look for close matches at Y111.

8 31 2016: A Facebook forum for R1b-L513 has been unveiled. It is at https://www.facebook.com/groups/R1b.L513/ The R1b-L513-project Yahoo email group will remain open. Both groups are closed for R1b-L513 people and family members.

6 28 2016: The project has 815 members who fit R1b-L513 STR signatures. 485 of those have confirmed with SNP testing.

5 1 2016: 165 project members have completed Big Y Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) testing. This is has been critical to development of the phylogenetic tree. Go to the About and About/Background pages to see the current tree.

Feb 20 2015: Converted to the new myGroups format and renamed the project the R-L513 project. The key STRs of DYS406s1>=11 and DYS617=13 are still generally effective for determining membership but verification by testing for L513 or a downstream SNP is critical.

Oct 30 2014: The project yahoo discussion group has changed its web address to conform to the SNP and subclade standards so it is now at: (deleted)

Mar 4 2014: The first Big Y results are coming in and new subclades are being identified.

Nov 1 2013: A new era for genetic genealogy has begun in earnest with Next Generation Sequencing testing. Big Y is FTDNA's offering to support scanning vast areas of the Y chromosome for new SNPs, a stable type of mutation good for marking a parternal lineage tree. The Y chromosome is so large there may be a new SNP every couple of generations, helping leave a bread crumb like trail in our family trees.

Nov 1 2012: L1333 was discovered in Walk-The-Y (WTY) testing in Wilson.

Jun 4 2012: L706.2 has now been added to the official ISOGG Y DNA tree. L706.2 is directly downstream of L513 and is a direct ancestor to L705.2.

Feb 14 2012: Brad McGuire continues to promote and drive progress on L69 for Subgroup A-2. 16 of 16 members of A-2 who have tested for L69 are L69+. Brad has conversed with FTDNA's Lab Director Thomas Krahn about L69. It appears to be somewhat unstable but within the context of L513+ people, L69 has been very consistent. Krahn said this would be the 4th observed occurrence of L69 in the Y DNA tree so it would be L69.5 when appearing in an L513+ person. L69+ people in A-2 should still test for L513 to confirm they are L69.5+.

Feb 10 2012: Two members of Subgroup B-2 have tested as L705.2-. To-date, 14 members of B-2 have been L705.2+. It might be that L705.2+ occurred after the MRCA of B-2 and the B-2 L705.2- people are an early branch prior to L705.2. L705.2 is appearing on the ISOGG official Y DNA tree as L705.2. L706.2+ occurred along side L705.2+ in the first four L705.2+ people so L706.2 may be phylogenetically equivalent.
Jan 19 2012: An L513+ Roberts was identified as having two new SNPs disovered in Walk-The-Y (WTY) testing. They L908 and L909. Each subgroup of L513+ should test for L908 and L909.

Nov 2 2011: Another member of Subgroup A-2 has been found to be L69+. There are now several people in the A-2*, A-2-M and A-2-B subgroups that are L69+. There are two that are P66+. L69+ is considered not to be stable, but within the scope of L513+ people it appears to be reliably marking some subset of A-2 people. A-2 people should be sure to test for L513, L69 and P66, all three. As a whole, A-2, appears to coincide with Airghialla II.

Oct 5 2011: A member of the Subgroup B-2 has been found to be L705.2+. As testing has continued, L705 appears to mark most of the B-2 subgroup but is negative in other subgroups. Among others a person of continental European descent, from France, has been found L705.2+.

Jun 28 2011: We have now have both a person from Scandinavia (Sweden) and the European Continent (Saxony, Germany) that are L513+. Early TMRCA age estimates are coming in at about 2200 ybp, 200 B.C.

Jun 2 2011: Almost every subgroup of the project has now been tested to be L513+.  It is now apparent that the SNP L513 is the key marker for this group. People in the project that are P314.2+ should join the DF21 project as that is an exclusive parallel subclade.

May 19 2011: Thomas Krahn of FTDNA has updated his draft Y DNA tree and has indicated that L513 and P314.2 are exclusive, parallel subclades of R-L21. He also determined that L193 and P66 are descended from L513.

Apr 20 2011b: Four individuals in the project have been found to be positive for L513, a newly discovered SNP from the 1000 Genome Project. These four people are from different Subgroups so L513 could be an SNP that marks this group as a true subclade.

Apr 20 2011a: An additional person within the project has come up with a P314.2+ SNP result.  This is a surprise as this P314.2+ person has DYS388=12 rather than the unusual DYS388=13 at that very slow moving STR marker. P314.2 could be wider spread across than originally expected. This the value of doing "deep clade package" SNP testing.

Mar 11 2011: L513 was added to the FTDNA Draft Tree by Lab Director Thomas Krahn.

Mar 5 2011: Two members of a Subgroup have been found to be P66+. P66+ is an unusual SNP. It also been found in an sample from Italy but of a person who's heritage was not documented. P66 is physically located in a area of the Y chromosome that is subject to being wiped out by a recLOH event and being reset to P66-.

Mar 4 2011: FTDNA and Ysearch.org are now using new haplogroup labels.  R-L21 is now R1b1a2a1a1b4 and L193 and P314.2 both have official status as subclades. L193+ people are now R1b1a2a1a1b4g and P314.2+ people are R1b1a2a1a1b4i. These two SNP's are now also included in FTDNA's universal deep clade test package which means we may find more folks that have this as they order this test package.

Feb 2 2011 The SNP DF1, also named L513 by FTDNA, was discovered by an anonymous researcher on the R1b citizen-scientist team. "DF" is the letter designation used by citizen-scientists and hobbyists on the old DNA-Forums blog.

Sep 22 2010: Project web site and Yahoo group web site have been updated to reflect the findings of L193+ and P314.2+.

Feb 20 2010: There are now 163 people in the project.

Feb 8 2010: Updated and a re-arrangement of the subgroups have been made to maintain tighter clustering at the lowest levels of the hierarchy.

Jan 16 2010: Several new surname groups have been identified. A major group of people that fit in are surnamed Little/Lytle.

Jan 15 2010: Several people in Subgroup A-1 have been been found positive for the new SNP, L193. People in Subgroup A-2, B, C and E have not been found to be positive on L193.

Dec 16 2009: FTDNA has the newly discovered SNP's downstream of R-L21* available under the Advanced Order menu item with SNP checkmarked. I have ordered one "package" and a Massie has as well. I recommend at least one member of each of the major groups of the project order this package of about 8 new SNP tests. L193 is included.

Dec 16 2009: Paul Burns from the Byrne Surname Project contacted us. We've done some checking at the Byrne's of Co. Monaghan, Ireland appear closely aligned with Group A, particularly McGuire/MaGuire/O'Donoughue folks.

2009-12-02: Found that some Barrett's from Ireland match the project haplotypes.

Nov 26 2009: One of the Meeks members was tested derived (positive) for L193. There is a Newton and a Kennedy in other projects that also are L193+. Kennedy has a 67 STR haplotype and he fits as well.

Nov 14 2009: We just hit our 50th member in the project. Over the last couple of days I scoured through Ysearch queries and FTDNA projects to find matching people and emailed them directly.

Nov 9 2009: We are up to 31 people who have joined the project. That is great but I know of another 30 or so who should join. Ask matching haplotype folks in your surname projects to join. I know there are Banks and Barrett's that fit in as well but I can't track any of them down.

Nov 8 2009: Initial subgroupings are established, but review and input is needed.

Nov 6 2009: Yahoo Discussion Group for L513 established and files uploaded.

Nov 5 2009: Project initiated by FTDNA and M.Walsh

Oct 31 2009: Agreement between A.Stansbarger and M.Walsh to start a project and invite people that are R1b and fit the identified haplotype off-modal STR signature. The values of DYS406s1=11 or greater and DYS617=13 for R-M269 people are the indicators for membership in this group.