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R L513 and Subclades

If L513+ DF1+ CTS5936+ Z249+ or DYS406s1=11 DYS617=13 - JOIN>>>
  • 1979 members

About us

WELCOME to the R1b-L513 and Subclades project!

L513 is a very stable mutation of the Y chromosome that gets passed down father to son through the generations. It probably occurred first in a man about 3500 years ago, our founding father. Synonyms for L513 are DF1 and S215. Synonyms just different names for the same SNP. However, the additional SNPs CTS5396, Z249, Z250, S5191, S5194 and S5197 are equivalents that mark the same haplogroup we call R1b-L513.

This descendant chart shows the branching (subclades) from our founder that we've identified so far through SNP testing. Current, more detailed versions are shown on the project About/Results web page
R1b-L513 Descendant Tree

Are these families descended from ancient Gauls, Gaels, Menapi Belgium Celts, medieval Normans and their Flemish or Breton allies, Hiberno-Vikings or Brythonic Celts? or all of these? Are they from old Britain, Northern France, Benelux, the Scottish Borders or Welsh Marches?

Which surnames were part of various Medieval Age clans?   What tribes were in during the times Julius Caesar invaded Great Britain? What about the Norse subclades of R1b-L513?

The answers are probably different by branch until we get back towards our founder, but these are the kinds of questions we want to answer.

Key Steps to Take

1. You must have a Y test result with Family Tree DNA (FTDNA). For frequently asked questions and answers about Y DNA testing check the ABOUT/FAQ item in the menu above. All members must order Y STRs or they will not appear on the project reports and in the Y matching system.

2. To join this project click on JOIN in the graphic banner at the top of this page and login with your FTDNA account kit number and password.

3. Update your FTDNA account by going to MANAGE PERSONAL INFORMATION. This is critical to finding potential relatives and origins. We must share data to be successful. I recommend using the tested person's last name as the Contact Last Name. If the kit owner is different than the tester, please use the First Name field to include "c/o" and the kit owner's full name (for mailing purposes).

3A. Go to PRIVACY & SHARING to check the below settings or you will not be a part of analyses.
Matching Preferences/Y DNA - All Levels
Origin Sharing - Opt in to Sharing
Project Sharing/Group Profile - Opt in to Sharing

3B. Go to PROJECT PREFERENCES to check Advanced or Limited Access for the project administrators. We can't help you if not granted at least Limited Access. Don't forget to check the box for future administrators too.

3C. Go to GENEALOGY to update your Paternal Ancestor. Enter only information that is not speculative. Example: “James Welch, b.c.1812, Co. Kilkenny, Ireland”. Enter your COUNTRY or leave blank if you don't know. Do not enter "U.S." unless truly of Native American paternal lineage. Please try to be specific if UNITED KINGDOM; pick either ENGLAND, IRELAND, NORTHERN IRELAND, SCOTLAND or WALES. Use current country borders so use NORTHERN IRELAND if accurate even if the ancestor predated its formation. Update the map location.

3D. Go to ACCOUNT INFORMATION to check your Contact information. Please add a backup email address and a beneficiary. Talk to your beneficiary.

4. Join the Facebook discussion group at Project administrators and advanced hobbyists are available on the R1b-L513 project Facebook forum so you can get help and share ideas. If you don't like Facebook please use the project's FTDNA Activity Feed for communications with project administrators.

5. If you are not at 111 Y STRs (Short Tandem Repeats) please upgrade. Our subclades are young so extended STRs are helpful to discern between subgroups potential relatives. Even if you have very few matches, upgrading occasionally picks up missing matches as well as refines matches. More STRs is a good investment in the matching database. Y111 is the gold standard and the majority in the major R1b subclade projects are at Y111. To learn more, read

More STRs can help...
a) identify your signature markers, guiding you on SNP/haplogroup testing and saving money on that kind of testing,
b) provide additional and better matches on your myFTDNA matches screen, even new matches can show up,
c) improve precision for Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) estimates,
d) and going all the way to 111 Y STRs supports family tree building when you reach brick walls in your genealogy, since the 111 STR panel is estimated to have a change once every three generations.

6. Move forward with an Single-Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP) testing plan so your subclade can be identified and haplogroup updated. Evaluating matches at 67 or 111 STRs can be very helpful. Clear patterns or STR signatures among your best matches may help you decide what SNPs or SNP Packs to buy. This project's Activity Feed as well as the Facebook forum are setup to help you evaluate testing plans. Even if you don't have matches on myFTDNA, the projects R1b-GOLD_Haplotypes spreadsheet can be helpful in identifying signature STRs for more efficient SNP testing.

SNPs can be ordered one at a time from FTDNA from your account, selecting the blue UPGRADES button and then scrolling down to the ADVANCED TESTS box and the BUY NOW button.

6A. Big Y-700 is the preferred test. It is probably the most important test you can take. It is a Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) test that discovers new SNPs by scanning over 14.5 million locations on the Y chromosome. A tremendous benefit is you will discover SNPs for just your paternal lineage as well as identify ancient SNPs that you may share with many, many other people. Big Y has the ability to discover SNPs that are pertinent to the genealogical timeframe, the last couple of hundred years. The Big Y learning web site has more details. Please read the Lewis and Clark Expedition analogy for Big Y exploration on the FAQ page.

If you have a true interest in genetic genealogy and breaking beyond the brickwalls of your genealogical records, please strongly consider both Big Y to determine your haplogroup down to a very recent timeframe and 111 STRs so that you can refine your close-in family and surname mutation history tree.

Project Considerations and Operations

The project administrators are volunteers and do not represent the vendors nor receive special benefits.

This is a public project. The more of us who test and share our information, the more we will all know. When you join you're making surname, ancestor and DNA related results public, from which they can never be fully retracted. Please remove yourself if you don't want to share publicly. We do not publish your full given name or contact info. Research information is shared across the R1b All Subclades project and major R1b Subclades projects.

This is a Y DNA haplogroup project. Actively participating involves Y SNP testing. SNP testing at FTDNA is required to be assigned to a standard (haplogroup) subgroup.

This project is operated as a system of record project. It is intended to operate for posterity purposes. Our descendants and family members and distant cousins can continue on when we are not able to or have new focuses in life. New generations can build upon our work. Subgroupings are done by SNP validated testing with a chain of evidence to the test results. Surname and STR based predictions are not reliable and not used to assign standard (haplogroup) subgroups, although STR clusters may be depicted to help guide SNP testing. Please validate findings with FTDNA testing so the project reports and analysis will reflect that. Outside research is fine, but please test at least your most youthful (terminal) haplogroup SNP at FTDNA.

Thank you for your consideration. Please review the Results web page. If you have specific questions please post at the R1b-L513 Facebook group at

More about SNPs

Single-Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs) are critical for R1b people as they are very stable, rarely mutating. R1b is both a very large group and relatively young. Most European R1b paternal lineages are related within the last several thousand years. That means that R1b STR based haplotypes often look alike. The most common pattern of Y STRs is the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype (WAMH). Most R1b people match several components of it. It is just a remnant of the fact we are closely related. SNPs help differentiate the branches of R1b’s descendants tree.

R1b-L513 itself, the main branch or trunk of our tree, is marked by the SNP L513. We all are L513+ since it was present in our common ancestor, a single prehistoric man. There are now over 500 known branches on the R1b tree.

Many of these branches have coincidentally matching Y STRs. In other words, their branches appear to cross. This gives us false matches.This is definitely a problem with limited haplotypes of 37 or less STRs. 67 is really the bare minimum in most cases and 111 is the new standard. There are now 2,000-6,000 L513 people with 111 STRs in FTDNA's database.

STRs are very useful for general guidance and for matching at the very recent family level, but they are not 100% reliable since some mutate relatively quickly and go both up and down and back to where they started from.

SNPs are much more reliable markers for our paternal lineages. Theoretically, they are permanent throughout eternity so they reliably show our branching of paternal lineages. The number of SNPs available for testing is growing as more and more advanced testing is developed. You will want to identify your terminal SNP, which is the youngest SNP mutation on the haplotree. Your youthful SNPs are the most important genetic genealogy.

SNPs help...
a) make you more efficient by avoiding false matches when checking for potential genealogical relationships,
b) help you identify deep ancestral family, clan or historical origins,
c) show you what geographic locations might produce additional matches and pertinent genealogical or historical information and
d) benefit all R1b people in general, as well as science, because we'll have a better understanding of how and when this lineage of men spread across Europe as rapidly and as dominantly as it did.

For additional information on SNP testing please visit

SNP testing, and Big Y700 in particular, is the way to discover and document your Family Y DNA Subclade.Y Giant Tree

Frequently Asked Questions are answered on the R1b FAQ page

Why Y DNA testing?

Why DNA testing at a full platform genetic genealogy company?

Why Y STRs and how are they used?

Why Y SNPs and how are they used?

Why Big Y Next Generation Sequencing?

What should I do with my Big Y results?

Should I upgrade Y STRs, even if I have limited or no matches?

What are terminal SNPs? novel SNPs? private and public SNPs?

Thank you for your consideration. Please review the project ABOUT/RESULTS web page