R L513 and Subclades

If L513+ DF1+ CTS5936+ Z249+ or DYS406s1=11 DYS617=13 - JOIN>>>
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About us

Welcome to the R1b-L513 and Subclades project!

L513 is a very stable mutation of the Y chromosome that gets passed down father to son through the generations. It probably occurred first in a man about 3500 years ago, our founding father. Synonyms for L513 are DF1 and S215. Synonyms just different names for the same SNP. However, the additional SNPs CTS5396, Z249, Z250, S5191, S5194, and S5197 are equivalents that mark the same haplogroup we call R1b-L513.

The descendant chart shows the branching (subclades) from our founder that we've identified so far through SNP testing.

R1b-L513 Descendant Tree

A detailed outline version of the branches and the SNP equivalents is at this link.  http://rebrand.ly/R1b-L513-Outline-Tree-pdf

Are these families descended from ancient Gauls, Gaels, Menapi Belgium Celts, medieval Normans and their Flemish or Breton allies, Hiberno-Vikings or Brythonic Celts? or all of these? Are they from old Britain, Northern France, Benelux, the Scottish Borders or Welsh Marches?

Which surnames were part of various medieval clans?

The answers are probably different by branch until we get back towards our founder, but these are the kinds of questions we want to answer.

Key steps for you to take 

1. You must have a test result with Family Tree DNA (FTDNA.) To read more about DNA testing check the DNA FAQ item in the menu above. National Genographic Project testers can easily join, but first you must transfer your test results to FTDNA by following the instructions at your National Genographic web page. Genographic customers must order Y STRs or they will not appear on the project screens and in the Y MATCHING system..

2. To join this project click on JOIN in the graphic banner above and login with your FTDNA account ID and password.

3. Update your myFTDNA dashboard by clicking on MANAGE PERSONAL INFORMATION. This is critical to finding potential relatives and understanding origins.

3A. Make sure your privacy settings are correct for the project. Click on the tab PRIVACY & SHARING. Look under MY DNA RESULTS for the question "Who can view my DNA results in group projects?".  Change to ANYONE if it isn't already.

3B. Update your Paternal Ancestor name and origins. Click on the tab PERSONAL PROFILE tab and scroll down to update your paternal origins information from the MyFTDNA dashboard after logged into. Select MOST DISTANT ANCESTORS and complete the information for your PATERNAL DIRECT most distant (oldest) ancestor. Please enter only information that is not speculative. Enter first and last names, birth year and as specific a birth and origin location as you can in the NAME field. For example, “James Welch, b.c.1812, Co. Kilkenny, Ireland”. For the COUNTRY OF ORIGIN field, please be as specific as possible. For instance, rather than select UNITED KINGDOM please pick either ENGLAND, IRELAND, NORTHERN IRELAND, SCOTLAND OR WALES if you know the origin. Add the latitude and longitude information as well so that the automatic maps can be drawn properly.
If you don't know, that is okay. Unknown may be the correct answer.
4. An additional sharing option is to create a Ysearch record from your myFTDNA web page so potential relatives can contact you without exchanging email IDs or other personal information. From the Y DNA menu on select MATCHES. On that screen scroll down to find the TAKE ME TO YSEARCH.ORG button and follow the instructions there. To learn more, Ysearch is at http://ysearch.org. Ysearch ID ZN8M3 is an artificial 96 STR haplotype that can be used to look for people that match our group's modal.
5. Join the Yahoo discussion group for this project. Several project administrators and advanced R1b hobbyists are available on the R1b-L513-project yahoo forum so you can get help. There are also links to scientific papers, research data, etc. on this group. You do not need to supply your actual name for this group. You can use a nickname. You can email R1b-L513-project-subscribe@yahoogroups.com to subscribe or visit http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L513-Project/info

The R1b-L513_Haplotypes spreadsheet is stored at the R1b-L513-project yahoo group. It has the haplotypes for people in the project with 67 STRs or more in its ALLHTS section and has everyone with 111 STRs or more in its EXTHTS section. This spreadsheet gives you a side by side look at STRs and SNPs and supports genetic distance (GD), mode, mean, variance and allele frequency distribution calculations for R1b as a whole or for subsets that you select. The GD's are not limited by FTDNA's match list thresholds so you can see and sort your GD to anyone and everyone in the spreadsheet.

6. If you have not yet tested to 67 Y STRs (Short Tandem Repeats) please upgrade. R1b is young so it is hard to discern between subgroups and potential relatives oftentimes without 67 STRs. 111 STR testing is clearly preferable and a better deal in terms of cost per STR, but 67 is the minimum needed. To learn more, read http://www.familytreedna.com/learn/y-dna-testing/y-str/upgrading-markers-improve-information/

More STRs can help...

a) guide you on SNP/haplogroup testing, saving money on that kind of testing,

b) provide additional and better matches on your myFTDNA matches screen,

c) improve precision for Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) estimates,

d) and going all the way to 111 Y STRs supports family tree building when you reach brick walls in your genealogy, since the 111 STR panel is estimated to have a change once every three generations.

7. Move forward with an Single-Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP) testing plan so your subclade can be identified and haplogroup labeled properly. Evaluating matches you have at 67 or 111 STRs can be very helpful and should not be overlooked. Clear patterns among your best matches may help you decide what SNPs or SNP Packs to buy. This project's Activity Feed as well as the R1b-YDNA yahoo group are setup to help you evaluate testing plans. Even if you don't have matches at 67 STRs on myFTDNA, the yahoo group's R1b-L513_Haplotypes spreadsheet can be helpful.

SNPs can be ordered one at a time from FTDNA by logging into your myFTDNA account, selecting the blue UPGRADES button and then scrolling down to the ADVANCED TESTS box and the BUY NOW button. SNP Packs can also be ordered here.

7A. Big Y is the preferred test.  It is probably the most important test you can take. It is a Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) test that discovers new SNPs by scanning over 10 million locations on the Y chromosome. The tremendous benefit in this is you will discover SNPs for just your paternal lineage as well as identify ancient SNPs that you may share with many, many other people. Big Y has the ability to discover SNPs that are pertinent to the genealogical timeframe, the last couple of hundred years. The Big Y learning web site has more details. https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/y-dna-testing/big-y/ Please read the Lewis and Clark Expedition analogy for Big Y exploration on the FAQ page. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l513/faq/

7B. The R1b-L513 SNP Packs are a very cost effective option that gives you very good coverage of the tree descending from L513. Whole swaths of SNPs for your haplogroup are all tested in one fell swoop for less than a dollar (USD) per SNP. These SNP Packs are intended to place you in your most youthful subclade/branch and update your haplogroup label. You can order it from your myFTDNA account. If you don't see the option, please check the blue UPGRADES button, then the BUY NOW button in the ADVANCED TESTS box, and pick SNP PACK in the SELECT A PRODUCT box.   The current pack line-up is below.  You can see the packs recommended for you on the project Y classic report web page by subgroup.  Please contact the project administrator (Mike) if you need help or have any doubts about what to do.

R1b-L513 (xS5668 xS6365) subclades SNP Pack
R1b-S6365 subclades SNP Pack
R1b-S5668 (xS5982) subclades SNP Pack
R1b-S5892 & L193 subclades SNP Pack

If you have a true interest in genetic genealogy and breaking beyond the brickwalls of your genealogical records, please strongly consider both Big Y to determine your haplogroup down to a very recent timeframe and 111 STRs so that you can refine your close-in family and surname mutation history tree.

A little more about SNPs

Single-Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs) are critical for R1b people. R1b is both a very large group and relatively young. Most European R1b paternal lineages are related within the last several thousand years. That means that R1b STR based haplotypes often look alike. The most common pattern of Y STRs is the
Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype (WAMH). Most R1b people match several components of it. It is just a remnant of the fact we are closely related. SNPs help differentiate the branches of R1b’s descendants tree.

R1b-L513, the main branch of our tree, is marked by the SNP L513. We all are L513+ since it was present in our common ancestor, a single prehistoric man. There are now many known branches downstream on the R1b-L513 tree, some as recent as the last couple of hundred years. New branches are being discovered all of the time.

Many of these branches have coincidentally matching Y STRs. In other words, their branches appear to cross. This gives us false matches.This is definitely a problem with limited haplotypes of 12 and 25 STR markers. Getting up to 37 helps, but 67 is really needed. 111 STRs is best.

STRs are very useful for general guidance and for matching at the very recent family level, but they are not 100% reliable since some mutate relatively quickly and go both up and down and back to where they started from.

SNPs are much more reliable markers for our paternal lineages. Theoretically, they are permanent throughout eternity so they reliably show our branching of paternal lineages. The number of SNPs available for testing is growing as more and more advanced testing is developed. You will want to identify your terminal SNP, which is the youngest SNP mutation that you have, that is on a formal Y DNA tree. Your terminal SNP tells you where you fit from a deep ancestral perspective.

SNPs help...

a) make you more efficient by avoiding false matches when checking for potential genealogical relationships,

b) help you identify deep ancestral family, clan or historical origins,

c) show you what geographic locations might produce additional matches and pertinent genealogical or historical information and

d) benefit all R1b-L513 people in general, as well as science, because we'll have a better understanding of how and when this lineage of men spread across Europe as rapidly and as dominantly as it did.

For additional information on SNP testing please visit http://dna-explained.com/2012/08/10/to-snp-or-not-to-snp/

This is a public project. The more of us who test and share our information, the more we will all know. When you join this project, you have granted permission to place your Y SNP, STR data and keyed in Most Distant Known Ancestor and origin into the public domain, from which it can never be retrieved. We do not publish your full given name or contact info.

Thank you for your consideration. Please review the Results web page. If you have specific questions please post on the Activity Feed or join the R1b-YDNA discussion group at http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L513-Project/info