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R L513 and Subclades

If L513+ DF1+ CTS5936+ Z249+ or DYS406s1=11 DYS617=13 - JOIN>>>
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About us

WELCOME to the R1b-L513 and Subclades project!


L513 is a very stable mutation of the Y chromosome that gets passed down father to son through the generations. It probably occurred first in a man about 3500 years ago, our founding father. Synonyms for L513 are DF1 and S215. Synonyms just different names for the same SNP. However, the additional SNPs CTS5396, Z249, Z250, S5191, S5194, and S5197 are equivalents that mark the same haplogroup we call R1b-L513.

This descendant chart shows the branching (subclades) from our founder that we've identified so far through SNP testing.

R1b-L513 Descendant Tree

Are these families descended from ancient Gauls, Gaels, Menapi Belgium Celts, medieval Normans and their Flemish or Breton allies, Hiberno-Vikings or Brythonic Celts? or all of these? Are they from old Britain, Northern France, Benelux, the Scottish Borders or Welsh Marches?

Which surnames were part of various Medieval Age clans?   What tribes were in during the times Julius Caesar invaded Great Britain?

The answers are probably different by branch until we get back towards our founder, but these are the kinds of questions we want to answer.


Key steps for you to take 

1. You must have a test result with Family Tree DNA (FTDNA.) To read more about DNA testing check the DNA FAQ item in the menu above. National Genographic Project testers can easily join, but first you must transfer your test results to FTDNA by following the instructions at your National Genographic web page. Genographic customers must order Y STRs or they will not appear on the project screens and in the Y MATCHING system..

2. To join this project click on JOIN in the coast line image above and login with your FTDNA account ID and password.

3. Update your FTDNA account by logging in and clicking on Manage Personal Information. This is critical to project participation, finding potential relatives and understanding origins.

3a. Go to the Account Information tab. Enter the surname of the individual tested for the Last Name. If you as kit owner have a different surname please include your full name in the First Name field similar to this example, "Mike Walsh c/o". In my hypothetical example I would list my Y DNA testing cousin's surname as the Last Name so a mailing to me would be "Mike Walsh c/o Rhea". At the same time project analysis by surname will be correct because Rhea will be used.

3b. Go to Genealogy/Earliest Known Ancestors/Direct Paternal. The Country of Origin is the Old World country. If U.S. is all you have just leave blank. Try to be specific in the British Isles. Select Wales, England, Scotland or N.Ireland "Wales" rather than U.K. if possible. For "Name" list birth date and county/shire/department if known. "Richard Rhea, bc.1710, Co.Antrim, IRL". Abbreviate the country if needed. Consider N.Ireland as Ireland for this field but include the county.

3c. Go to the Privacy & Sharing. Select “All Levels” for Y-DNA Matching. Check “Opt in” for Origin Sharing and check “Opt in” for your Project Sharing/Group Project Profile.

3d. Go to the Project Preferences. For the R L513 and Subclades please be sure we are listed as either "Limited" or "Advanced". “Advanced” is preferable for people who want help on keeping their account information correct or are interested in accepting donations for testing.

4. Join the discussion groups for this project and ask questions or propose your theories. You do not need to give your actual name. You can use a nickname. You can email R1b-L513-project-subscribe@yahoogroups.com to subscribe. There is also a Facebook group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/R1b.L513/

5. If you have not yet tested to 111 Y STRs (Short Tandem Repeats) please upgrade. Our subclade is young so it is hard to discern between subgroups and potential relatives oftentimes without 111 STRs or 67 at a bare minimum. To learn more, read http://www.familytreedna.com/learn/y-dna-testing/y-str/upgrading-markers-improve-information/

More STRs can help...

a) guide you on SNP/haplogroup testing, saving money on that kind of testing,

b) provide additional and better matches on your myFTDNA matches screen,

c) improve precision for Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) estimates,

d) and going all the way to 111 Y STRs supports family tree building when you reach brick walls in your genealogy, since the 111 STR panel is estimated to have a change once every three generations.


6. Move forward with an Single-Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP) testing plan so your subclade can be identified and haplogroup labeled properly. Evaluating matches you have at 67 or 111 STRs can be very helpful and should not be overlooked. Clear patterns among your best matches may help you decide what SNPs or SNP Packs to buy. This project's Activity Feed as well as the R1b-YDNA yahoo group are setup to help you evaluate testing plans. Even if you don't have matches at 67 STRs on your FTDNA account, the R1b-L513_Haplotypes analysis can be helpful as it includes ancient clade mates.

SNPs can be ordered one at a time by logging in to your FTDNA account, selecting the blue UPGRADES button and then scrolling down to the ADVANCED TESTS box and the BUY NOW button. SNP Packs can also be ordered here.

6a. Big Y500 is the preferred test.  It is probably the most important test you can take. It is a Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) test that discovers new SNPs by scanning over 10 million locations on the Y chromosome. The tremendous benefit in this is you will discover SNPs for just your paternal lineage as well as identify ancient SNPs that you may share with many, many other people. Big Y500 has the ability to discover SNPs that are pertinent to the genealogical timeframe, the last couple of hundred years. The Big Y500 learning web site has more details. https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/y-dna-testing/big-y/ Please read the Lewis and Clark Expedition analogy for Big Y500 exploration on the FAQ page. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l513/faq/

6b. The R1b-L513 SNP Packs are a very cost effective option that gives you very good coverage of the tree descending from L513. Whole swaths of SNPs for your haplogroup are all tested in one fell swoop for less than a dollar (USD) per SNP. These SNP Packs are intended to place you in your most youthful subclade/branch and update your haplogroup label. You can order it from your myFTDNA account. If you don't see the option, please check the blue UPGRADES button, then the BUY NOW button in the ADVANCED TESTS box, and pick SNP PACK in the SELECT A PRODUCT box.   The current pack line-up is below.  You can see the packs recommended for you on the project Y classic report web page by subgroup.

R1b-L513 (xS5668 xS6365) subclades SNP Pack
R1b-S6365 subclades SNP Pack
R1b-S5668 (xS5982) subclades SNP Pack
R1b-S5892 & L193 subclades SNP Pack


If you have a true interest in genetic genealogy and breaking beyond the brickwalls of your genealogical records, please strongly consider both Big Y to determine your haplogroup down to a very recent timeframe and 111 STRs so that you can refine your close-in family and surname mutation history tree.


A little more about SNPs

Single-Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs) are very stable mutations that are critical for this project and building trees of paternal lineages. SNPs are very reliable branch markers. Essentially they are a permanent bread crumb trail to our paternal ancestors going all the way back to the genetic Adam. However, there are so many locations on the Y chromosome scanned by Big Y500 we are finding an SNP about every four generations. This gives us the opportunity to build a tree that is both useful in genetic genealogy to break down lineages within surnames and can mark our ancestry back through the development of Medieval Age clans, and even Classic Age and Prehistoric tribes and cultures.

R1b-L513, the main branch of our tree, is marked by the SNP L513. We all are L513+ since it was present in our common ancestor, a single prehistoric man. There are now many known branches downstream on the R1b-L513 tree, some as recent as the last couple of hundred years. New branches are being discovered all of the time.

Many of these branches have coincidentally matching Y STRs. In other words, their branches appear to cross. This gives us false matches. This is definitely a problem with limited haplotypes of 12 and 25 STR markers. Getting up to 37 helps, but 67 is really needed. 111 STRs is best.

STRs are very useful for general guidance and for matching at the very recent family level, but they are not 100% reliable since some mutate relatively quickly and go both up and down and back to where they started from.

SNPs are much more reliable markers for our paternal lineages. Theoretically, they are permanent throughout eternity so they reliably show our branching of paternal lineages. The number of SNPs available for testing is growing as more and more advanced testing is developed. You will want to identify your terminal SNP, which is the youngest SNP mutation that you have, that is on a formal Y DNA tree. Your terminal SNP tells you where you fit from a deep ancestral perspective.

SNPs help...

a) make you more efficient by avoiding false matches when checking for potential genealogical relationships,

b) help you identify deep ancestral family, clan or historical origins,

c) show you what geographic locations might produce additional matches and pertinent genealogical or historical information and

d) benefit all R1b-L513 people in general, as well as science, because we'll have a better understanding of how and when this lineage of men spread across Europe as rapidly and as dominantly as it did.

For additional information on SNP testing please visit http://dna-explained.com/2012/08/10/to-snp-or-not-to-snp/


This is a public project so that our findings can be shared with and saved for our descendants and relatives. The more of us who test and share our information, the more we will all know. When you join this project, you have granted permission to display pseudonymized DNA results and entered project data, like Earliest Known Paternal Ancestor and Origins, publicly and that can never be fully retracted. However, administrators do not display personal contact information and full names publicly and attempt to faithfully follow FTDNA guidelines and regulations.

Thank you for your consideration. Please review the project About/Results web page