Sinclair DNA Study

  • 568 members
Administrators
  • Steve St Clair
Co-Administrators
  • Danny Redmond

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James Sutherland James Sutherland
21 hours ago
My 3rd cousin James Sutherland (kit 938370) is processed. He should show up on the Sinclair list as my brother Robert Sutherland did. ..... janice
Danny Redmond
18 hours ago
Janice, I moved the kit to group A2iii. NARRATIVE - Ancestral Sinclairs of Roslin, Orkney & Caithness, Earldom "Caithness Cluster".
Danny Redmond Danny Redmond
Admin
October 11 @ 12:26pm
FREE webinar on Y-DNA until 10/14/2020. Roberta Estes' new webinar "Wringing Every Drop out of Y DNA" is available to view free through October 14th on Legacy Family Tree Webinars. I highly encourage watching it. You can find the link on her blog at: https://dna-explained.com/2020/10/09/free-y-dna-webinar-at-legacy-family-tree-webinars/?fbclid=IwAR3dMx88jCHumQfSjjWzm2YnHSm_-npIQq5howi9TiIQL-HTQilE27l4_zg
Robert St Clair
October 11 @ 12:37pm
Thanks, Danny. Will try to catch it later.
Joseph Magyar Joseph Magyar has a question!
September 20 @ 7:40pm
“ Does anyone have a copy of this book? If so does it contain information on the William Sinclair that died in 1826 in Belmont County, Ohio? (His gravestone photo is posted below) ”
Steve St Clair
October 3 @ 11:10am
I've never seen that one Joseph.
Peter Sinclair Peter Sinclair has a question!
September 25 @ 12:46pm
“ Where can I find a definition or explanation of the chart headings in yellow, for example A1 Narrative? ”
Danny Redmond
September 25 @ 8:43pm
I believe the groups were setup by previous administrators before Steve took over. The segment "...R-P310>P311>FGC37082>A8055,A8062" reference to a specific haplogroup and SNP but it looks like over time, it became more of a location for individuals linked to possibly to "Ancestral St Clairs, Herdmanston, Barony & later Lords Sinclair" either through the Y chromosome or through the autosomal DNA (the other 22 pair), but this is just a guess. I just recently joined Steve as a co-administrator but need a little time to review the groups to help fix where kits may be better aligned. A1 is the first one I would like to update.
Steve St Clair
October 3 @ 11:09am
Craig Sinclair helped me out at one point to re-organize the results page into a more clear presentation. What you're seeing in these groupings is always led by the "Narrative" which is the supposed story. Then to the right, the known SNPs which are determined by deeper DNA testing like the Big Y test. The STR numbers are to the far right. Why do I distinguish between "Narrative" and "Facts"? Because genealogies and family histories tell one story, yet sometimes the SNP results tell a very different story.
Joseph Magyar Joseph Magyar
September 20 @ 11:40pm
Seeking the parents of Fanny St Clair (Sinclair) Mary Beth Jensen posted the Outline Descendant Tree below on an early mailing list server for genealogy that existed long before the World Wide Web. My problem with Mary Beth's descendant tree, which was replicated early on across the internet in various forms, is that I believe it is incorrect with regards to my 3rd great-grandmother, Fanny St. Clair and her sister Anna. I tried many times to get the error corrected but without information about Fanny's actual parents it has proven to be difficult. Descendants of Mary Patterson 1 Mary Patterson 1739 - .. +James Sinclair, Sr. 1736 – 1813 ........2 Phebe St. Clair 1763 - ............. +Thomas Smith 1763 - .................... 3 Robert H. Smith 1780 - .................... 3 William Smith 1780 - .................... 3 Sinclair Smith 1795 - .................... 3 Jonah Smith 1797 - ......... 2 Ann St. Clair 1765 – 1837 ............. +Samuel Gregg 1763 - 1838 .................... 3 Mary Gregg .................... 3 Abel Gregg .................... 3 Phoebe Gregg .................... 3 Eli Gregg .................... 3 Gulielma Gregg .................... 3 Israel Gregg .................... 3 Asa Gregg .................... 3 Phineas Gregg 1800 - 1884 .................... 3 William Gregg 1803 - .................... 3 Tacy Lacy Gregg 1808 - 1897 ......... 2 George Sinclair 1767 – 1836 ............. +Elizabeth Pitman ......... *2nd Wife of George Sinclair: ............. +Elizabeth Best 1770 - .................... 3 Phebe Sinclair .................... 3 Alvina Sinclair .................... 3 Eden Sinclair .................... 3 Cynthia Sinclair .................... 3 Mary Sinclair .................... 3 Elizabeth Sinclair 1793 - .................... 3 James B. Sinclair 1811 - ......... 2 John Sinclair, Sr. 1770 – 1857 ............. +Susanna Dishman ......... *2nd Wife of John Sinclair, Sr.: ............. +Mildred Dishman ......... *3rd Wife of John Sinclair, Sr.: ............. +Rachel Daniel 1770 - 1815 .................... 3 Amos St. Clair .................... 3 Samuel St. Clair .................... 3 Watson St. Clair .................... 3 John St. Clair, Jr. .................... 3 Hannah St. Clair 1820 - ........................ +Amos Gorrell Phillips ......... 2 James Sinclair, Jr. 1772 – 1820 ............. +Catherine Hibbs .................... 3 Frances [Fanny] St. Clair/Sinclair 1792 – Bef. 1860 ........................ +Thomas Curtis, Sr. 1790 - 1827 .................... 3 Anna St. Clair/Sinclair 1796 - ........................ +Job Curtis 1795 - ......... *2nd Wife of James Sinclair, Jr.: ............. +Mary Bundy 1786 - 1864 .................... 3 Huldah Sinclair 1809 - .................... 3 Dempsey Bundy Sinclair 1810 - 1871 .................... 3 John Sinclair 1812 - 1886 .................... 3 William George Sinclair 1813 - 1894 .................... 3 Emily Sinclair 1815 - 1891 .................... 3 Miranda Sinclair 1817 - 1879 .................... 3 Matilda St. Clair 1819 - 1853 ......... 2 Mary St. Clair 1774 - ............. +Jacob Gregg 1774 - .................... 3 Esther Gregg .................... 3 James Gregg .................... 3 Anna Gregg .................... 3 James Gregg II .................... 3 Rebecca Gregg 1800 - ......... 2 Esther St. Clair 1776 - ............. +Travis George 1776 - .................... 3 Harriet George 1806 - .................... 3 Mary George 1810 - .................... 3 Maria George 1812 - .................... 3 Hester George 1813 - .................... 3 Seldon George 1819 - .................... 3 Simpson George 1826 - ......... 2 William St. Clair, Sr. 1779 – 1871 ............. +Alice Smith 1781 - 1861 .................... 3 Susanna St. Clair 1804 - 1813 .................... 3 Emily St. Clair 1806 - 1841 ........................ +Robert Mills Lowry .................... 3 Mary St. Clair 1808 - ........................ +Thomas Smith .................... 3 Sarah St. Clair 1809 - 1877 ........................ +Joseph Williams .................... 3 James St. Clair 1811 - 1889 ........................ +Polly Emerson Sherman .................... 3 Nancy St. Clair 1813 - 1880 ........................ +William Lowry .................... 3 Samuel St. Clair 1815 - .................... 3 William St. Clair, Jr. 1817 - .................... 3 Smith St. Clair 1818 - 1879 ........................ +Ora M. Sherman .................... 3 George Milton St. Clair 1821 - 1899 ........................ +Mary Jane Linn .................... *2nd Wife of George Milton St. Clair: ........................ +Mary Elizabeth Daniel .................... 3 John Fenton St. Clair 1821 - 1897 ........................ +Margaret Crouse .................... 3 Esther St. Clair 1823 - 1896 ........................ +Thomas Frame .................... 3 Thomas Linley Sinclair 1824 - 1895 ........................ +Nancy Nixon ****** The bulk of the above descendant tree is correct with all the the children's names (generation ......... 2) being named in James Sr's will. James Sinclair, Jr. 1772 – 1820 married Catherine Hibbs on 2 Apr 1800 in Loudoun County, Virginia. I have found no evidence that they were the parents of Fanny and Anna St Clair, born in 1792 and 1796 respectively. Frances "Fanny" St Clair was my 3rd great-grandmother and she married Thomas Curtis on 09 Jan 1809 in Loudoun Co, Virginia. They moved to Belmont County where they had my gg-grandmother, Melinda Curtis Griffith. I found the following marriage record for them: Taken from “Marriages of Loudoun County, Virginia, 1757 – 1853”, compiled by Mary Alice Wertz, Genealogical Publishing Co., 1985 - p.35 Curtis, Thomas and Fanny Sinclair, ward of Hamilton Rogers, bm. Alijah Sands, bm. 9 Jan. 1809. Here is what I have on Fanny's family to date: Descendants of Unknown St Clair 1 Unknown St Clair (Sinclair) . +Ann unknown ........ 2 Malinda St Clair b: Abt. 1789 ........... +Samuel Curtis b: 1794 m: 1816 d: 1876 ........ 2 Frances "Fanny" St Clair b: Abt. 1791 d: Bef. 1860 ........... +Thomas Curtis b: 1790 m: 09 Jan 1809 d: 25 Jul 1827 ........ 2 Anna St Clair b: Abt. 1794 ........... +Job Curtis b: 1795 ........ 2 Lucinda "Lucy" St Clair b: Abt. 1795 d: 07 Aug 1890 ........... +David Romine b: 26 Jul 1795 m: 29 Jun 1820 d: 14 Nov 1852 Any help at all on this family, especially Fanny's parents, would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Joseph "Skip" Magyar jmagyar2@comcast.net
Joseph Magyar Joseph Magyar
September 20 @ 7:44pm
Danny Redmond Danny Redmond
Admin
September 19 @ 1:43pm
The attached is how I calculated the Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) for branch R-FGC15254, which is in the A2 grouping. My calculations shows TMRCA between 1535 - 1271 AD. Note, you should be able to right click on the image and save to your computer for better viewing.
Danny Redmond Danny Redmond
Admin
September 17 @ 10:10pm
Hi Kathryn! Great questions. The individual with the fewest Non-Matching Variants (NMV) are listed on top. The first match has 10 NMVs, the next two have 12 NMVs, then 14 NMVs, then 15 NMVs, and so on. However, in the case of where the two have the same number of NMVs, I believe the person that received their test results first is displayed first, but this is just a guess. Since Craig Andrew has the fewest NMVs, in theory, he would be your closet match. However, if one of you has taken the older BigY test (ie BigY or BigY500) and the other the BigY700, the results could be screwed a bit. The BigY700 test consistently returns ~50% more mutation data to work with including more SNPs. This is why it is important for men to upgrade to BigY700 so that we can have a better analysis of the data. Your/Craig’s haplogroup is R-FGC15254. When you look at the Block Tree, the branch to the left are “younger” and as you move to the right the branches get older. You are correct that your matches are in 4 different haplogroups (FGC15254, FGC15256, FGC35613, and ZS5151) but you will notice that 3 are “downstream” from your haplogroup. However, you are all related because you carry the same SNPs that have been passed down from generation to generation. Let me provide a little more information to hopefully make it a bit clearer. In the block, the first line is the primary SNP in the branch. If you recall, a SNP is simply a mutation at a spot on the Y chromosome. The ancestral value at the position 9975579 on the Y chromosome should be G (guanine). However, over 900 years ago, a man was born and at that same spot, the value changed to C (cytosine). Full Genomes Corp of Virginia and Maryland discovered this mutation and named it FGC15254 (note the initials FGC). Since father’s pass down their mutations to their sons virtually intact, every man that has this SNP descend from the same man. There are occasions where this didn’t happen but it is extremely rare. This means, every person in the 4 branches (FGC15254, FGC15256, FGC35613, ZS5151) all carry the SNP FGC15254 and descend from a common ancestor. Additionally, your block has other SNPs listed (FGC15257, FGC23570, FT81201, FT81225), which means they are all positive for these SNPs too. But look at the branch to the left of you. It has the SNP FGC15256, which is also the name of the branch. The men in the branch had an ancestor that carried this mutation and passed it down to his sons but it occurred AFTER FGC15254 because you and the others in your branch are negative for this SNP. Now look to the left of FGC15256. There are two branches under FGC35613. This means the men in both of these branches are positive for SNP FGC35613 but negative for FGC15256. Similarly, the men in FGC15256 are negative for SNP FGC35613. I will use an example. Let’s say the common ancestor was John and he carries the mutation FGC15254. We know he will pass this to his sons. When John’s son Frank was born, he carries this mutation but he also had a mutation of his own and we will call it FGC15256. Frank would then pass this mutation to his sons and their sons, and so on. Now John has a second son name Steve. Steve didn’t have any new mutations, so he carries the same mutations his father has but would be “negative” for his brother’s SNP FGC15256. Now Steve has his own son name Peter. Peter carries the same SNPs as his father and grandfather but he created his own mutation, which we will call FGC35613. Now Peter has his own son named Robert and Robert has a mutation we will call ZS5151. Neither his father, Peter, his grandfather Steve, his grand uncle Frank, or great-grandfather John would carry SNP ZS5151. However, all of these men are related and descend from John! Hopefully, my example makes senses and help you understand why Steve said your group was part of the Orkney, Caithness Earldom cluster. I apologize if my example was too basic but thought it might also help others.
Craig St Clair
September 18 @ 12:16pm
Thank you, thank you for your prompt and detailed reply Danny! Your explanation was very helpful. However, I still have some more questions…. 1. How do you know if you have completed the Big Y 700 vs the 500? I believe ours is the 700. It was completed in September 2019. 2. I now understand the Block Tree much better, but I’m still somewhat confused with the St. Clair/Sinclair DNA Study-Y-DNA Chart. The FGC 15254 are placed in several different A2i charts. I presume that is due to the most distant known ancestor information. Is that correct? 3. Also, a related query. From what you and Steve have said, I believe you mean that my cousin, Craig St. Clair should be placed in the A2iii Caithness Cluster? That still confuses me as that primarily consists of FGC35613 results. I realize that our branch and the FGC35613 are descended from a common ancestor, but why the Caithness cluster instead of the A2ii Orkney/Shetland Cluster? Our most distant known ancestor was living in the Shetlands. 4. Next…Is it possible to make an educated guess on who the common ancestor for FGC15254, 15256, 35613 and ZS5151 might be? Thanks again Danny for your help and patience with my many questions!! Have a great weekend, Kathryn
Danny Redmond
September 18 @ 5:26pm
Hope this helps. 1. Yours is BigY700. The easiest way is to look at the Y-DNA match list and if your match has taken a BigY, there will be data in the "Big Y STR Differences" column. Typically, if the STR number is in the 500's, the person has taken BigY500. If the values are mid-high 600, then BigY700. However, low-mid 600's I've seen both. Craig Andrew has taken BigY500. 2. I need to do a little more work reviewing this and perhaps check with Steve on the history of how these groupings were developed. I do see that there are separate groups depending if the kit was a BigY confirmed terminal SNP being FGC15254 or those that only tested that exact SNP or via a SNP Pack. If I remember correctly, this setup was done before Steve took over the project. 3. I'm not sure of the discussion but if your kit is 747289, then you are alone in the "Shetlands" group. I don't think there is any plans to move you. 4. Yes, I'll see what I come up with.
Craig St Clair
September 19 @ 12:01pm
Thank you, thank you Danny! I appreciate you looking into my question about a common ancestor. Your help is invaluable!! Kathryn
Danny Redmond
September 19 @ 1:41pm
Hi Kathryn! No problem. I'm going to post shortly a photo for your block tree showing how I came up with the Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA). I'm giving it a range of 1535-1271. The challenge is we are using an average time frame for when a SNP was created. If you have taken a BigY500, we use 144 but if you have taken a BigY700, then we use 83 years. BigY700 is more accurate but since it tests more of the Y chromosome than BigY500, BigY500 testers have have private variants not yet detected. That is one reason for upgrading. So I'm giving you the high and low range based on 83 and 144. Hope you understand how I came up with the range. Remember, this is only an approximate calculations.
Joseph Magyar Joseph Magyar
September 19 @ 1:20am
William Sinclair who departed this life Sept 13, 1826 In the 49 year of his age. Anyone have any information on William Sinclair buried in the Old Methodist? Cemetery? Place Taken: St Clairsville, Belmont County, Ohio Date Taken: 13 Oct 2002 Owner: Skip Magyar
Craig St Clair Craig St Clair
September 17 @ 1:35pm
Hi Steve and Danny! Thanks SO much to you both for all you do for this group. I'm the first cousin of Craig St. Clair (Kit # 747289) and I have a couple of questions for you pertaining to his test results. Steve, you kindly responded to some of my questions I posed on the study site last October. However, I still need some clarification please. Unfortunately, we're still quite confused! You said to first check on Craig's Big Y matches. Here are some questions I have about that: Are the matches listed in order of how close the matches are? For instance, Craig Andrew Sinclair is listed at the top, then Robert Alan Sutherland, and thirdly, John Sinclair. So is Craig Andrew the closest match? What is "my" Craig's haplogroup? Also, of the first six matches listed, there are 4 different haplogroups! You said that our St. Clair/Sinclair branch were definitely from the FGC35613 Haplogroup, part of the Orkney, Caithness Earldom cluster. However, only two of the six have that Haplogroup. Additionally, the Big Y Block tree lists us as FGC-15454. However, I'm not sure if this has been updated recently. Thank you so much for all you're doing for all the Sinclair/St. Clair families searching for answers! We look forward to hearing from you when you get a moment. Kathryn
Danny Redmond
September 17 @ 10:12pm
Kathryn, the activity feed wouldn't allow me to post a picture in my reply to you, so I created a new post with my responses to your questions. Hopefully, it will help!
Robert Sinclair
September 18 @ 8:33am
Kathryn you must not have your settings set correctly as I can not see you in my matches! Please contact me at rjsinc@hotmail.com regarding your results
Craig St Clair
September 18 @ 12:17pm
I'll start on an email to you now Robert! Kathryn
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