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R-L165 (S68)
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New Members - FTDNA sets your results "PRIVATE" by default; please remember to set them to "PUBLIC".

Update: February 2017

Branches downstream of R-L165 have been discovered

R-L165>BY456>More (see Results page)

R-L165>BY129>More (see Results page)


For more information on Membership Requirements and Advanced Testing, see "News" Page

The SNP defining R-L165/S68 was discovered in 2007 by Jim Wilson of Ethno Ancestry.  It was originally thought to be a "Private SNP", but later found in another individual with a different surname and haplotype; Ethno Ancestry designates the SNP as S68. FTDNA found the same SNP independently in 2010 and initially thought it to be "Private" until more unrelated samples showed up. The FTDNA designation for this mutation is L165.

Later in 2010 it was discovered that the two designations actually refer to the same SNP.  ISOGG convention in these cases is to to list them alphabetically regardless of which was discovered first.  The ISOGG designation is therefore R-L165/S68.

Europedia lists the origin of this SNP at about 3,500 years before present. They show the most prevalent ancient group to be Germanic; however there has been considerable discussion on this matter.


Membership Requirements:

Temporary Membership will be granted to those who do not meet the requirements explained below, however, the test for L165 MUST be ordered within 60 days of joining the project.

Note: We use members genealogical information to help us order the Public Results Table; please send us information regarding your Earliest Known Ancestor as soon as possible after joining the project.  If you are a "known cousin" of someone else in the project, we use what we call the "Ancestral Modal Haplotype" of your family to determine your family's "Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA)" to the larger group of related individuals.  If a small group of members within a "Cluster" - for example, the Clan MacLeod - share a pattern of STR mutation, we also determine the "Ancestral Modal Haplotype" of that group to determine TMRCA. Genealogical information is vitally important for us to accomplish this. For more about this...see "Ancestral Modal Haplotype" below.

Those seeking to join the R-L165/S68 Project will be required to meet at least one of the following requirements:

(a) L165+ result from FTDNA's advanced order menu;

(b) been tested positive for L165 (S68 E.A.) by another DNA testing company and willing to commit to additional testing at FTDNA

(c) genetic and documentary evidence which indicates a shared recent paternal ancestry with an L165/S68 positive individual;

(d) a close genetic match to an L165/S68 positive individual (STR testing must be of at least 37 markers and within the allowable genetic distances of 37-4 or 67-7)

1) must agree to order the L165 test and/or additional more recently available testing from the advanced order menu at FTDNA within 60 days of acceptance into the project if requested by the Project Leaders

Ancestral Modal Haplotype:

When we have a group of genetically related individuals, we use the most common allele at each STR (marker) to determine the hypothetical Ancestral Modal Haplotype (AMH) for that larger group.  For example, using the STR results of each of the genetically related MacLeod's, we have determined the AMH which is then used to determine those who are "related" to that group or Cluster regardless of their surname.  In this way, we eliminate recent mutations from TMRCA calculations that took place SINCE the time of the Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA) of the large group and can bring those whose individual haplotype contains too many mutations to be "related" into the larger group. Advanced Testing can help us determine more clearly the TMRCA to the larger group.

When we have a shared pattern of mutation away from that Modal Haplotype, we have indications of a branch which formed SINCE the MRCA.  For example, the mode for DYS464 among MacLeod's is "14, 15, 15, 16" and a group of six men who share a mutation of "14, 14, 15, 15" appear to form a downstream branch.  We take the most common allele at each marker for this group of 6 to determine their AMH and then use that to compare to the AMH of Clan MacLeod to determine TMRCA.  The previously unknown to be closely related group of individuals can then work together to try to determine when and where their most recent common ancestor lived. And Advanced Testing, can potentially discover SNP's that represent this branch of Clan MacLeod; these SNP's would be shared only among those who belong to the branch. 

When we know that we have a group of documented and known cousins or even brothers or father/son groups, we use the same method of taking the most common allele at each marker for that group of recently related individuals and determine the hypothetical AMH for that family group's  most recent common ancestor which is then used to determine TMRCA to the larger groups AMH.  It is therefore important that we have information provided to us when a family has tested multiple members.  Unlike most Projects, our DNA Results page groups these family members together rather than as part of the larger group of related individuals.  Advanced testing can reveal SNP's that represent this family branch; again, the SNP's would be shared only among those who belong to this branch. 

Mailing List:

With the website change to the new format, the previous mailing lists have been abandoned.  Members should now use the Activity Feed for discussions as this forum is available to all members with no additional logins required.