Haplogroup I-L38

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Are you a member of the Haplogroup I-L38 project?
Robert Smith Robert Smith has a question!
January 14 @ 7:09pm
One more question about Stephen Prata's tree diagram on p.33 of the manuscript. I see there is a branch point within BY14072 where Y67927 joins S27697 and then both join to L533. Is there a new terminal SNP we have not heard about yet or are these theoretical estimates from the model?
2 Comments
Hans De Beule
January 17 @ 1:18pm
SNPs were weighted higher than STRs.
Robert Smith
January 17 @ 1:48pm
Yes, I remember that now. If you set the SNP weights high enough, it creates the same effect as conditional dependence. It would be interesting to back off the SNP weights in a step-wise manner to see if there is a critical point where the structure falls apart. Gradually relaxing the weights changes the assumption from an absolute dependence on the SNPs to allowing more of an interaction effect with the STRs.
Antonios Kollias
17 hours ago
Hi Robert. Thank you for upgrading to BigY-700. Is there a reason, why you opted out both kits at YFull? Can't see both on actual tree.
Robert Smith
16 hours ago
That was a silly mistake. The new account should be visible now. I encouraged them to do a meta-analysis using both the BY500 and BY700 tests, rather than replacing the original with the new version. This should be a valid exercise because they are independent sequencing runs on the same sample. I would not assume BY500 is merely a subset of BY700. It may turn out to be mostly true, but that is something to be proven rather than assumed. I'm looking forward to some new insights about the deep structure of BY14072. The new STR results are still in progress, so that may have to wait a bit longer.
Anton Savchenko Anton Savchenko has a question!
January 19 @ 2:13pm
Hi everyone! My grandfather supposed to be a german during WW2. To confirm or deny this fact, I have been tested Y-DNA (37). I don't have any matches except of one Ancestral Origin (Austria, genetic distance 1). FTDNA defines my haplogroup as I-M170. According to nevgen (and some advices from M170 project) I relate to L38 (predicted S2606+ > BY1183+ according to L38 project’s chart). My kit No is IN75106. If I get it right, L38 is relatively rare group. So, my question is: how likely I’m related to L38? If so, does this fact clarify anything regarding my grandfather’s origin? I will be grateful for any help!
1 Comment
Antonios Kollias
January 20 @ 6:11am
One more. Where are you from?
Anton Savchenko
January 20 @ 4:36pm
Hi Antonios (wow what a name!:) and thanks for your response! Yes, I'm waiting for results of autosomal DNA test. I'm from Ukraine.
Antonios Kollias
January 21 @ 8:09am
Great. With autosomal DNA you will be able to find out more, especially if all your known ancestors are from Ukraine. It won't be easy, but if you have many German matches (Don't forget to upload to My Heritage and Gedmatch) you could be able to find him. Please keep us updated. I do live in Germany. If you need more help, in case your grandfather is really German, just tell me.
Anton Savchenko
January 21 @ 1:59pm
Ok, thank you so much! Will do
Hans De Beule Hans De Beule
Admin
January 21 @ 11:38am
Hi all, I am glad to be able to share this Group Members Promo with you: Group Project Members can get $25 OFF Big Y-700 when they use the below promo code! Promo Code: GROUPSBIGY Use code GROUPSBIGY at checkout to receive the offer. Pay attention: the promo code expires 1/25/2020 @ 11:59 pm CST Only one promo code may be applied to the cart per transaction Promo code may not be used in conjunction with other offers Offer may be applied to a new kit, as an add-on test to an existing kit, or as an upgrade
Dwaine Maxson Dwaine Maxson has a question!
January 18 @ 6:24am
I am new to this but am very curious since I have always loved history and have had some interest in DNA and genetics since college. Plus, I really enjoy genealogy as well. Has any archeological remains of the Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Norsemen/Vikings, etc had their Y-Chromosome sample extracted and identified as belonging to any haplogroup(s) including this one? I guess I am curious to know whether it possible to know whether you are a descendant of one these historical groups based on Y-Chromosome and/or DNA testing. So, is it even possible to know this based on modern DNA testing?
William Hannon
January 18 @ 11:53am
Hi Dwaine, go to the left sidebar and click links, and read The Lichtenstein Cave article to start.
Dwaine Maxson
January 18 @ 6:43pm
Thank you
Hans De Beule Hans De Beule
Admin
January 17 @ 1:28pm
Tentative I2a-Y10705 and I2a-L38 aDNA tree
Robert Smith
January 17 @ 1:37pm
I really like this tree. It exactly demonstrates the point I was making about the risk of using modern descendants of Y10705 as a reference sample.
Robert Smith Robert Smith
January 14 @ 6:52pm
Wow! A new haplogroup at the base of the tree - S2524. The way I interpret this result is that we (all of us here) are literally descended from a male relative in Cheddar Man's clan. Am I understanding this correctly?
Hans De Beule
January 15 @ 2:23pm
The chances are small that Cheddar Man is a direct ancestor of the I2a-L38 MRCA (and us). We know for a fact though that we share a common ancestor with Cheddar Man: at some point in time Cheddar Man shares a forefather with the I2a-MRCA (and us)
Robert Smith
January 15 @ 4:53pm
Cheddar Man was estimated to have died in his early 20s. So, probably not a direct ancestor. This gets into a question of clan size. Are Cheddar Man and Mister proto-I-L38 two men out of 200 or two out of 20,000? Based on what you concluded about clan sizes in the Mesothlithic period, I would guess closer to 200.
Hans De Beule
January 16 @ 2:03pm
Good question! Some population experts among us? The population must have been small.
Robert Smith
January 17 @ 10:38am
I mentioned the importance of clan size because a small clan size puts some constraints on the time back to a common ancestor. If we assume the clan maintained a replacement population (typical for hunter-gatherers) and the clan size was small (about 200 men), that would mean almost everyone in the clan was related as a 4th cousin or closer with respect to Cheddar Man. Fourth cousins would be five generations removed from a male common ancestor. That's a blink of an eye compared to the time dimension from Cheddar Man to the present. It's an argument for relatively few differences between Cheddar Man and his proto-I-L38 contemporary. Of course, it could be (by random chance) that proto-I-L38 Man was some new guy who wandered into the clan. But that's not likely, given that he and Cheddar Man are both classified as I-S2524. That's why I said Wow! about this new finding.
Robert Smith Robert Smith
January 17 @ 10:23am
Another interesting finding in the recent white paper on Cheddar Man is that all known S2525/Y10705 men have a common ancestor that dates back to 700 years ago. This has important implications for using Y10705 SNPs as a basis of comparison to evaluate derivative mutations in I-L38 haplogroups. This small subclade of Y10705 has had thousands of years to pile up mutations of its own and shouldn't necessarily be considered representative of Y10705 as a whole. It could be argued that a comparison of SNPs and STRs to Cheddar Man as a reference sample is a more valid approach. It would be very helpful to do a thorough analysis of several ancient Y10705 samples to determine how much drift has occurred over the past 10,000 years compared to living descendants.
Tom Maxson Tom Maxson
January 16 @ 3:41pm
The group's 600th member would appear to be Dwaine Maxson (#B542377) who has just been grouped with my first cousin Tom Maxson and two members of the Chowning family. Both Dwaine and Tom share a most-unusual 6 repeats at the DYS454 marker, along with the only other Maxson known to have tested his paternal DNA -- Robert L Maxson (not currently a member of this project). By tradition, the Maxson family in America is descended from a blacksmith -- Richard Magson/Maxson -- who arrived in Boston in 1634. MRCA for Dwaine & Tom is the blacksmith's great grandson (Tom's 7th ggf) -- Joseph Maxson Jr (1692-1747). --Tom Brown for Tom Maxson
Dwaine Maxson
January 17 @ 5:47am
Thank you for the introduction. Richard Maxson is my 9th great grandfather and Richard's great grandson Joseph Maxson Jr (1692-1747) is my 6th great grandfather.
Robert Smith Robert Smith has a question!
January 14 @ 6:53pm
Hans, your white paper shows evidence that the M223 mutation originated in the ice age refuge of northern Italy. However, we can't be sure about Y10705 because no one has studied it in detail as of 2019. Is that an accurate assessment?
Hans De Beule
January 15 @ 2:14pm
I think the proto-Y10705 assessment is as accurate as the proto-M223 assessment: SNPs are determined and placed in the known Y-tree. (In the past no Y10705 SNPs were examined because the I2a-Y10705 SNPs were not defined in the ISOGG tree (and the labeling software) as a proper branch. It is striking that one location in Italy harbours a proto-I2a-M223 and a proto-I2a-Y10705 aDNA sample. The "proto" means that these samples are not derived for all SNPs that characterize the SNP-blocks of the respective I2a-M223 or I2a-Y10705 MRCA. Metaphorically: these aDNA samples rather represent "granduncles" than "grandfathers" of the M223 and Y10705 branches. And when two "related granduncles" live in the same area there is a fair chance that their common ancestor also lived in that area :)
Hans De Beule Hans De Beule
Admin
January 1 @ 3:45am
Dear I-L38 project members. Happy 2020 to you all! As a New Year's present I just uploaded a paper that investigates the relation between Cheddar Man and I2a-L38 at: https://www.academia.edu/people/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=cheddar+man I hope you enjoy it and that you keep supporting the I-L38 project! Best wishes, Hans
1 Comment
Kenneth Cornell
January 2 @ 6:30am
waiting for it to down load taking a good while
Kenneth Cornell
January 2 @ 7:28am
finally got it very good article !!!
Rob Walsh
January 5 @ 7:53pm
A very impressive work Hans, very impressive.
Robert Smith
January 10 @ 12:21pm
Terrific paper. I'm making my second pass through it.