Haplogroup I-L38

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Robert Smith Robert Smith has a question!
June 27 @ 11:52am
Question for the admins. I noticed there is an extra level between S2525/Y10705 and Cheddar Man in the FT DNA Y-Tree that is missing from YFull. They have named it I-S2519. Does anyone know what this is based on?
13 Comments
Antonios Kollias
Yesterday at 7:45am
@Robert. Surely you can ask him questions. The aDNA were analysed by Mr. Sager. It could be better to ask him, but I doubt he has the time for that. I did reach Göran through FaceBook.
Robert Smith
Yesterday at 11:38am
I was going to leave it to Hans De Beule to explain this, but he has worked through what probably happened. The negative results at the I-S2525/Y10705 level for the 10 SNPs I was asking about are in the Bustillos sample, which YFull does not have. What makes this a little bit controversial is that the negative control is based on a I-L38 test pack. That doesn't invalidate the results; it just means they are incomplete. Much more could probably be learned if this sample was upgraded to Big Y-700.
Hans De Beule
7 hours ago
Some interesting fragments from the Cassidy paper: 1/ The supplementary information of this paper states that "Another rare haplogroup, I2a1b2, is also present in Late Neolithic Orkney (Extended Data Fig. 7a). This change in the Ychromosome profile of Orkney between the Early to Middle and Late Neolithic periods may suggest an introduction of new male lineages during the transition. => This probably refers to the Isbister I2977 sample, that we already labeled as I-Y10705. 2/ SRA62 had a dark skin, dark brown hair and blue eyes. 3/ SRA62 is demonstrably distinct from northwestern continental groups. This contrasts with results from British Mesolithic genomes, which cannot be distinguished from Loschbour in this manner. 4/ British hunter-gatherers show no differentiation from their continental contemporaries. This is consistent with palaeogeographic models that posit a Doggerland bridge between Britain and the continent for most of the Mesolithic, but a separation of Ireland that pre-dates the Holocene epoch. Irish hunter-gatherers also exhibit a signature of ancestral constriction that supports a prolonged period of island isolation. This implies that continental and British hunter-gatherers lacked the technology or impetus required to maintain frequent contact with Ireland, and reflects the relatively late seaborne colonization of the island in the Mesolithic (approximately 8,000BC), followed by a sharp divergence in lithic assemblages. Nonetheless, as there were no signatures of recent inbreeding, it appears Irish hunter-gatherers were capable of sustaining outbreeding networks within the island itself despite the estimated carrying capacity of only 3,000–10,000 individuals. Ps: At the Eupedia forum Maciano states that SRA62 is L38+. This is not true. Of the tested I-L38 SNPs the sample tested only positive on S2519.
Robert Smith
5 hours ago
Do we have an estimated time of formation for this new I-S2519 branch?
Robert Smith Robert Smith has a question!
July 9 @ 6:14pm
I have one more aDNA question about Cheddar Man. Do we know anything about his private mutations? The I-S2524 haplogroup was formed about 10,000 ybp and Cheddar Man lived about 9,100 ybp. That leaves 900 years to pile up new mutations. It would be interesting to know in case the new SRA62 sample is descended from a close relative of Cheddar Man.
Dwaine Maxson Dwaine Maxson
June 19 @ 4:36am
I just got my upgrade results for the Big Y test. I was in Haplogroup I-M170 but with the upgrade my it is now more specifically I-BY98512 which is a subgroup of I-M170. When will this update my results in the group and does this do anything else?
Tom Maxson
June 20 @ 11:53am
It appears your results here have already been updated, Dwaine. Since our MRCA is Joseph Maxson Jr who was born in 1692, we now know BY98512 is at least that old. Joe Jr. had at least four other brothers plus two uncles. Also between us, we average 18 private variants so I'd say we're just scratching the surface. My MRCA with Ron Maxson was born in 1849, so Ron's results will provide some clarity on my end, but now we really need to find some more Maxsons willing to test! --Tom Brown for Tom Maxson
Tom Maxson
July 9 @ 9:05am
Coming back to this, I was doing a bit of housecleaning at the Maxson Project and noticed that we now have a new terminal SNP -- I-BY165874! --Tom Brown for Tom Maxson
Robert Smith Robert Smith has a question!
June 19 @ 8:21pm
I have an ancient DNA question. In the I-L38 Research Milestones for December 2019, there is reference to a Marcus et al. paper about ancient DNA in Sardinia. Following this is a comment about a sample from the Su Crucifissu Mannu necropolis that appears to be proto-L38. I did a little digging and found the sample was used in a principal components analysis that appears in a supplement to the main paper (sample SUC003). I don't see any mention of the Y-DNA haplogroup of this individual in the supplement. Has any more SNP mapping been done on this sample in the last 6 months?
Robert Smith
June 20 @ 3:46pm
Sweet. Thank you. It looks like SUC009 is the most relevant sample. It shares six Y10705 SNPs with Cheddar Man (including the one for CM that was scored as ambiguous) and one L38 SNP. The coverage is presumably not as good because of the quality of the sample. If we could be confident about the negative reads (that they are really negative as opposed to non-calls), maybe this gives us some useful information about the order of accumulation of L38 mutations. For those following this thread, the positive matches are as follows: For I-Y10705*: S2490, S2503, S2504, S2599, Y10708, and FGC36958. The last one is the ambiguous read for Cheddar Man. Mister SUC009 is positive for the Y10705 mutation, whereas it is missing for Cheddar Man. And for I-L38*, the common match is Y13463. SUC009 has one other positive match (S10886) that is apparently missing for Cheddar Man.
Robert Smith
June 21 @ 12:14pm
After I went through my little analysis above, I noticed Hans De Beule mentions this man in his white paper on Cheddar Man. Hans further notes that the sample C14 dates to 3,850 to 3, 660 ybp, which places him in a parallel clade to L38. I wonder if the sample is good enough to attempt to classify this man as I-S2524*? That sounds like a project for YFull.
Robert Smith
June 24 @ 7:16pm
I found a post on Anthrogenica that shows both the positive and negative reads for SUC009 when scoring for the I-L38 haplogroup: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19227-Population-history-from-the-Neolithic-to-present-(Sardinia)-Marcus-et-al-(2019-). Assuming the negative reads are really negative and not non-calls, SUC009 has four negative reads for SNPs where Cheddar Man scores positive: L40/S156, S2492, Y11319, and Y11324. That places him just above Cheddar Man in the Y-haplotree.
Robert Smith Robert Smith has a question!
June 21 @ 1:54pm
That was so much fun I decided to ask one more question about ancient DNA. This one is about the Mesolithic sample that Selina Brace et al. analyzed from Ogof-yr-ychen (= Ox Cave). They classified this sample as I-M436 by ISOGG 2017 criteria and C14 dated it to about 8,650 to 8,550 ybp. There is a heat map in the supplement to her 2019 paper (Supplementary Figure S1) where she compares this sample to Cheddar Man and many others. See: https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2019_Brace_NatureEcologyEvolution_Supplement.pdf. (Hans De Beule also included this figure in his white paper on Cheddar Man.) If you look at the details, Ogof-yr-ychen-1 and Cheddar Man appear to be quite closely related by whole genome mapping. Has anyone done a more complete analysis on the Y-haplogroup of this sample using the ISOGG 2019 classification?
Robert Smith
June 24 @ 6:29pm
I found the answer to my question on the Anthrogenica forum. Ogof-yr-ychen-1 tested positive for the SNP CTS616, which places him in a subgroup of I-M223.
James Ross James Ross has a question!
June 19 @ 3:14pm
What would a mitochondrial test show on my 6th generation grandmother
John Seaton John Seaton has a question!
June 3 @ 9:38am
Hello, new Group member John Seaton here. I belong to the I2 Haplogroup and recently joined another GB group. One of the Administrators suggest I join this group. My kit # is 412663 and they suggest joining the I2a2b-L38 Project and asking about S27697 that is two levels below L38. I have a couple matches under I-S27697 and would like more information about it (i.e. What time period was this from and what region of the UK). Any recommendations or information about it would be much appreciated. Thanks
29 Comments
Antonios Kollias
June 14 @ 2:37pm
John Seaton
June 14 @ 4:59pm
Thanks for the info. Antonios If and when I upgrade to the BigY700 I will need someone like you or others knowledgeable to interpret my data and explain my results for a novice like me!
John Seaton
June 16 @ 8:00am
p.s. Upgraded to BigY-700 yesterday...hope it yields multiple matches and interesting results!
Antonios Kollias
June 18 @ 2:16am
You're welcome John. You can ask whenever question you have.
Hans De Beule Hans De Beule
Admin
March 1 @ 2:24pm
Let's share summaries of our I-L38 family histories; distinguishing what is known, unknown, and hypothetical. Ideally this thread becomes a reference of I-L38 family lines!
25 Comments
Stephen Templar
June 2 @ 1:59am
Templar
Brian More
June 7 @ 11:08am
Ydna is for my Brother - Surname MORE. Our line has been in North of Scotland from 1600s (paper trail). I can well imagine that the surname changed. It is most probably close to Sutherlands, Gordons, Nicolsons from Scotland. They links to my tree and also have some with similar Ydna...just can't prove link yet!
Brian More
June 7 @ 11:10am
for Brian More Kit 198455
Arthur Rule
June 15 @ 4:58am
Hi Merrill, I live in the UK and occasionally visit Cambridgeshire, but am a rank amateur, using Ancestry to start me off, but then trying to check original sources myself. Most recently I have been trying to translate three Elizabethan wills to work out family relationships in the early 1600s - there were just too many John RULEs around to be certain of a match between a birth in one place and a marriage 25 years later somewhere else. Note that during Covid lockdown a few of these documents are online and available free; when Lockdown ends I hope to go up to London and look at some of the manorial documents to search for RULEs in the early 1500s.
Stephen Templar Stephen Templar
June 10 @ 4:37am
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Hans De Beule Hans De Beule
Admin
February 27, 2019 @ 12:49pm
Dear I-L38 project members, Last week became clear that the Cheddar Man (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheddar_Man ) is an early I-L38 sample. Actually he tested positive for 6 out of 32 that were tested on the I-L38 level. He did not test positive for SNP "L38" though, which makes him "ancestral to I-L38". Members who have taken a Family Finder test can compare their autosomal DNA to that of Cheddar Man by uploading their Raw Family Finder File to GedMatch (https://genesis.gedmatch.com ). To do so: 1 Download your Raw Family Finder Data ("Build 37 x Chromosome Raw Data") from your personal FTDNA page. 2 Register to GedMatch. 3 Upload your Raw Data and note your kit number code. 4 Click the "One-to-one Autosomal DNA comparision". 5 Fill in your kit number (in the kit number 1 field) 6 Fill in SC8491738 (in the kit number 2 field - this is Cheddar man's code) 7 Fill in "50" as SNP window size threshold. 8 Fill in "3" as Minimum segment cM size. 9 Click the Submit button and your result appears. Then, please share your result in this thread. Please report: * the largest segment (eg: 4.0 cM) * the total half-match segments (eg: 7.7 cM) * number of shared segments (eg: 2) Let's compare and find out who is Uncle Ched's closest genetic relative :-) Best wishes, Hans De Beule volunteer I-L38 project admin
70 Comments
Jerome Reynaud
April 13 @ 3:22pm
Largest segment = 6.6 cM Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 24.9 cM (0.694 Pct) 5 shared segments found for this comparison. 157428 SNPs used for this comparison. 51.929 Pct SNPs are full identical
Craig Martin
April 14 @ 5:24am
Largest Segment = 3.3cM
Craig Martin
April 14 @ 5:27am
Largest Segment = 3.3 cM Total Half Match Segments 6.5 cM 2 Shared Segments 457102 SNPs 56.648 Pct SNPs full Identical
Adam Betts
May 30 @ 4:10pm
Hello - I'm new to this group (just joined today). I have very little technical knowledge, but this project (comparison to Cheddar Man) seemed like fun. 1) My FTDNA results are from a Nat Geo Geno 2.0 Transfer (as far as I know, I've never upgraded via FTDNA after the initial transfer). 2) FTDNA has me as I-L38 > I-S2606 (I-L38 confirmed with 23andMe and LivingDNA as well, mt is V) Here's my GEDmatch results from several testing companies when compared to Cheddar Man. Perhaps someone could tell me why some of the results are different between companies. FTDNA (from Geno 2.0): Comparing Kit T319961 (Adam Betts) [Migration - F2 - T] and SC8491738 (Cheddar Man) [Academic] Minimum segment threshold size to be included in total = 50 SNPs Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 3.0 cM Mismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment. Largest segment = 4.1 cM Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 8.1 cM (0.226 Pct) 2 shared segments found for this comparison. 454399 SNPs used for this comparison. 56.688 Pct SNPs are full identical Ver: May 29 2020 15:12:55 23andMe: Comparing Kit M156686 (Adam Betts) [Migration - V4 - M] and SC8491738 (Cheddar Man) [Academic] Minimum segment threshold size to be included in total = 50 SNPs Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 3.0 cM Mismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment. Largest segment = 4.0 cM Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 4.0 cM (0.113 Pct) 1 shared segments found for this comparison. 368578 SNPs used for this comparison. 54.912 Pct SNPs are full identical Ver: May 29 2020 15:12:55 AncestryDNA: Comparing Kit TD7980256 (Adam Betts) [Ancestry] and SC8491738 (Cheddar Man) [Academic] Minimum segment threshold size to be included in total = 50 SNPs Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 3.0 cM Mismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment. Largest segment = 4.4 cM Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 8.5 cM (0.236 Pct) 2 shared segments found for this comparison. 328779 SNPs used for this comparison. 52.737 Pct SNPs are full identical Ver: May 29 2020 15:12:55 MyHeritage: Comparing Kit WV4620492 (Adam Betts) [MyHeritage] and SC8491738 (Cheddar Man) [Academic] Minimum segment threshold size to be included in total = 50 SNPs Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 3.0 cM Mismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment. Largest segment = 4.4 cM Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 17.8 cM (0.497 Pct) 5 shared segments found for this comparison. 158113 SNPs used for this comparison. 52.194 Pct SNPs are full identical Ver: May 29 2020 15:12:55 LivingDNA: Comparing Kit QM9425675 (Adam Betts) [Living DNA] and SC8491738 (Cheddar Man) [Academic] Minimum segment threshold size to be included in total = 50 SNPs Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 3.0 cM Mismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment. Largest segment = 5.1 cM Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 19.2 cM (0.536 Pct) 5 shared segments found for this comparison. 241241 SNPs used for this comparison. 53.766 Pct SNPs are full identical Ver: May 29 2020 15:12:55