J2a-PF5197/Z2397 (J-PF5169, J-YSC0000246) Haplogroup research - News

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Begin April 2014: 115615 Fakhro is PF5197+ PF5169+ L198- L1064- so there are other clades then L1064 in PF5169 having DYS491=9. PF5174 test is suggested now, if negative only a Y-Sequence test will be able to resolve the position sub of PF5169 eventually. 126975 Toulmin, likely a distant match to the Ray/Kopp/Rhoads cluster in L198, joins the project and orders L198.

Mid/End Mar. 2014: 313158 Arzamanov orders L198. 115615 Fakhro orders PF5197, PF5169, L1064! Let's hope at least the first two are positive. 184022 Syria from PF5174 predicted cluster orders M172 to check is his J1 prediction is false. 295724 Raimondi joins, he is a possible member of the cluster with N76290 Higgins (PF5177+). 198631 Khan (YSC0000246+) Big Y still pending. N122277 Costa da Rosa (Geno 2.0 SNP result PF5169+ PF5174-) with paternal ancestry from Lebanon joins the project, is interested to order Y-DNA37. Another new member is 238587 Bas likely in Hg PF5172, maybe negative for PF5169, because DYS490=9 is shared with 182122 Milito and 217812 Boghikian (notified by JaG).

Begin Mar. 2014: members of the J2a1a1a>PF5197/Z2397 group in Y-DNA_J-project get a message that the kits will be joined to the partnering projects J2-M172 Haplogroup Research and J2a-PF5197. Member numbers increase to 183, tough 48 kits are not confirmed/predicted to be in PF5197. Most interesting addition is the B30 Upper Rhine cluster (Mock/Schweitzer/Hamann), the "pre + M419" cluster (Leap, Anniello) as well as additional kits in YSC0000253, L198, L1064 and PF5174. Also interesting is the analysis of the so called cluster F (see semargl table) in J2-M172 project: this cluster is negative for M67, M47 and L24 and the only remaining matching haplotypes are in PF5197 (YSC0000253 and PF5169). Therefore a SNP test for one out of the clear British cluster with center in Kent  (Bradbury, Strange, Clarke, Chapman, Meanley, Mitchell, Wetherill, Owen, Griffin, etc.) is interesting. Not clearly but probably also member of this cluster are kits like E13603 Dick Switzerland, 184386 Turkey, 109098 Lipinski. Hopefully we can discover where the clusters B30 Upper Rhine, "pre + M419" and F belong to. The Interesting haplotype and subclade samples collection under Results is a bit outdated and as well as the Current haplogroup evidence (tree) and group names needs an update ASAP. 313158  Arzamanov is PF5169+! A SplitsTree STR-Distance-Analysis-Network shows he is near and between the Mock/Schweitzer/Hamann and the Kopp/Ray/Rhoads(L198+) Cluster. So the next step would be the L198 test.

Feb. 2014: Y-DNA12 results of N115753 Melito are out: he is a perfect match to Y-DNA111 kit 182122 Milito! This was partly foreseeable. Their "mysterious" PF5172+ PF5169- clade should be spread also elsewhere then in South Italy (Geno 2.0 recognizes this clade) but 182122 does not have any informative matches. So the search must go on outside of the PF5172* South Italy cluster. Y-DNA12 results of N76595 Mungur are available and he is not near to any of the other members in the broad YSC0000246 WSA Indus cluster. E14539 Ray confirms by sanger sequencing that L198 is PF5169+

Begin Jan. 2014: funding offer of Y-DNA12 for N115753 Melito (Geno 2.0 SNP results of the yet unknown PF5172* haplotype) and SNP PF5169 offer for the first L198+ kit with 67 Markers who answers (E14539 Ray was the quick lucky winner). New J2-M172 simple tree functions allow call of latest J2a-PF5197 tree. N76595 Mungur receives an Y-DNA12-37 upgrade funded from 198631 Khan.
J2 Middle East Co-Admin adds 81 kits predicted or suspected PF5197: N23186 Khoory United Arab Emirates; M7424 Al-Saleh  Kuwait Kuwait; 165210 Ahmad  Najd Saudi Arabia; 235811 TT  Saudi Arabia, Riyadh Saudi Arabia; M5038 O  Saudi Arabia, Riyadh Saudi Arabia; M5007 ( J2a4* - L26 )  ( J2a4* - L26 ) Saudi Arabia, Riyadh Saudi Arabia; 183092 Al Enezi Saudi Arabia; M7436 Al-Ajeel Al-Askar Kuwait; 183096 Eneza Saudi Arabia; M7990 علي بن سليمان آل حمد ـ حريملاء ـ آل أبورباع  Saudi Arabia, Riyadh Saudi Arabia; 159297 Fadel  village near Jbeil (جبيل, Byblos, Gebal), Mount L. Lebanon; 159300 Namour  Bkassine (near Jezzine), South L. Lebanon; M7469 Turki Saudi Arabia; 241530 Arriyadh Saudi Arabia; 186298 Alakkas Unknown Origin; 223655 FA Najd Saudi Arabia; 153545 عبدالمنعم بن علي بن علي بن غانم الجبيلي  الشيخ عبدالمنعم الجبيلي/ المجابل (المقابل) بالمبرز Saudi Arabia; 183314 جاسم محمد طاهر غانم الجبيلي  فريج المجابل (المقابل) بالمبرز Saudi Arabia; 262925 b Unknown Origin; 168722 Tsedaka  ISRAELITE SAMARITAN-TRIBE OF MENASHE-TSAFARI CLAN Israel; 214069 Abudayeh  Abudayeh, Arab Kfr Thulth, Palestine Palestinian Territory; M6566 Shareef  K.S.A Saudi Arabia; 197276 Alnuzhah  Asad Alnuzhah Saudi Arabia; 149554 Altamimy  Tamim 2000, Najd, Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia; 303935 Kelemen  Kelemen, Regöly, Hungary Hungary; M7464 Alshamsi United Arab Emirates; 186088 Tay Jordan; N100355 Sager  Kuwait Kuwait; 197522 Tba Jordan; 281853 Alqahtani United Arab Emirates; M6480 Odeh Palestinian Territory; N104541 Seyed Jafari Unknown Origin; 154461 M H Saudi Arabia; 291406 الهاشمي Unknown Origin; M8041 ALDOSARI Kuwait; 204382 Ahmed Unknown Origin; M6570 Al Eshaq Al Blooshi آل إسحاق البلوشي United Arab Emirates; 174576 El-Arfaoui Tunisia Tunisia; M6425 Al Zaabi United Arab Emirates United Arab Emirates; 216152 Fadhl Mashaat al sayigh b.1740 Saudi Arabia;168041 Al-Hassani Al-Hashemi Iraq; M8074 قبيلة آل عيسى الطائية Iraq; 210857 Al Dosari(Abufaisal.T) اقليم سدير Saudi Arabia; M6992 ouled khalfa ben A3mer ben zoghba al hilali Algeria; M6450 Mahdeer Morocco; 296539 الطريقي Tariqi, Sfax Tunisia; 71974 Nawab Nawab Syed Alam Ali Naqvi, c1500, SirsiSadat,India India; M6814 عصام آل قنعير المملكة العربية السعودية Saudi Arabia; 204506 Khan Balochistan, Pakistan Pakistan; 284908 Alathmi (العاثمي) Unknown Origin; 193297 Sudan Project Sudan; 246936 Bisultanov Chechen Republic, Arg'anoy-Bisolt gar Russian Federation; 236612 Esposito Kledzik Giuseppe Arniello Sposito b.1799 d.1868 Italy; 193511 Al-Khonji (Al-Abbasi) (Abufaisal.T) ذرية عبدالسلام الخنجي العباسي 733هـ Saudi Arabia; 236572 Iskakov Akkorgan kozha Kazakhstan; M8077 المفرجي الطائي Iraq; 165003 Turki Tunisia; 176186 Qaddourah Qaddourah Palestinian Territory; 57963 Mir Mohammed Gujar Gujar, Pakistan Pakistan; 207796 Al Saleem الشعبة )الاحساء /المبرز) Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia; 279674 Dhofar Study Unknown Origin; 282018 Al-Qassim Saudi Arabia; M7018 المير عبدالله Unknown Origin; M8190 Al-shatti Ali Alshatti Kuwait; 186284 الشمري Unknown Origin; 205250 Al Abadi Al Zain AlDeen Al Blooshi United Arab Emirates; 115615 Al Qassim Fakhro, Qatar; 288632 ابراهيم أحمد ابراهيم سليمان آل حمود سيهات Saudi Arabia; M6410 Ghanam Unknown Origin J2; M6457 Sulaiman J2 Kuwait; M8042 Ali Bahamas; 212222 Salm85 Qatar; 203565 ياسين عبدالله عبدالوهاب الشوارب الفريج الشمالي بالهفوف - محاسن Saudi Arabia; 166232 Al Taher Al Blooshi mohammed,1980-2010 Saudi Arabia; M7807 Bu Hamed Al Baloshi United Arab Emirates; 171623 Khalefa Saudi Arabia; 291964 G Unknown Origin; 259102 Alghannam ( الغنام ( السعودية Unknown Origin; M8962 Al-Sulaiman (عبدالله السليمان) يوسف عبدالله السليمان Saudi Arabia; M7003 AL MAZROOEI United Arab Emirates; M6003 Ali United Arab Emirates; M7239 Sultan H Qatar; 216669 Sultan H Qatar J2a4; . Two kits where not available for joining: M6447 S Kuwait; 186288 Unknown Origin.

Dec. 2013: Great news (christmas present): Trough a interested and generous donor we will receive 4 FGC Y-sequences to explore the phylogeny in the L1064 clusters. More, when all samples are choosen and everything is setup. Additionally we have one BigY-sequence pending in YSC0000246 (198631 Khan). Let's hope also for L198 and PF5172* we will receive a Y-sequence eventually to better reconstruct the phylogeny in PF5197. 313158  Arzamanov joins the project. His kit is not a clear match to any PF5172 cluster, but seems near to the yet mysterious cluster *B who is expected to be PF5174+

Mid Nov. 2013: Finally a Y-sequence seems affordable for a private costumer: FTDNA has relased the BigY test for an introduction price of $495 (later $695). See ISOGG Wiki for a (partial) comparison with FGC Comprehensive Y-DNA test for $1,250. J2a-PF5197 project like other Y-DNA projects strongly advocates doing a Y-sequence test to allow comprehensive lineage SNP research. For best research progress sub of every known haplogroup two or more Y-sequences not nearly related are needed. FTDNA N113114 Pakistan has Geno 2.0 results only and is YSC0000246. As he is in J2-M172 project he is expected to join this project. FTDNA 168722 Samaritan Meneshe-Tsafari is confirmed PF5169+ and probably is also PF5174+ a presumably huge clade.

Begin Nov. 2013: Project funds offered to L198 kits to confirm PF5169+ and to 274793 Kurtsikashvili for L1064+ confirmation which on 35 Markers is not anymore near to any existing L1064 cluster but ca. 50 generations away to some of them and therefore if confirmed an interesting new cluster. Added 4 haplotpyes from Di Cristofaro et al 2013 to the YSC0000246 WSA clusters in the samples collection.

End Oct. 2013
: a very interesting Y-DNA 23/25 match to 134080 Costa pops out: 274793 Kurtsikashvili (see Georgian DNA). Probable origin is Eastern Georgia as suspected by this Wikipedia article: Nino Salia. Let's hope this interesting link can be substantiated more after the upgrade to 37 Markers is finished.

Begin Oct. 2013: N111458 Kohl/Yeager does join and additionally since some days has his 12to67 Marker upgrade done. He matches clearly to L1064 Central European. As reported in J-L250 news the Geno 2.0 result of this sample (J-PF5169, comunicated via e-mail) did lead at the beginning of 2013 to the first speculation that L1064 is PF5169+ before this was later confirmed publically by N37321 Tyrone and E4955 Kaser. Also 25365 Gattie from the same cluster like Yeager and Kaser joins. 253629 Vezdeni is confirmed YSC0000253+.

End Sept. 2013: 168722 Samaritan Meneshe-Tsafari is PF5160/Z2221+ and L24- so he very likely is PF5197+ and indeed he seems to be a distant match to E12430 Nazaryan predicted to be in Cluster B (PF5174+). This observations seems also valid for the near match 214069 Abudayeh. 297268 Cardoso with his Y-DNA37 results matches clearly to 294898 Munoz (~17 generations) and 134080 Costa (~22 generations) in the L1064 Ibero-English group.

Begin Sept. 2013: Thomas Krahn is not anymore working at FTDNA. This brings huge uncertainty in the Y-SNP citizen science research community: does FTDNA abbandon to support this field for customer funded direct advancement of haplogroup discoveries?

End Aug. 2013: N37321 Tyrone donates $20 and another $20: thank you again! N115753 Melito joins the project: having his Y-SNP result public in a FTDNA project is very important and interesting for the future J2a-PF5172* research. He is disappointed a bit about his Geno 2.0 results on the maternal side, but may gets interested more about his paternal lineage and orders a STR-Marker test for checking near Y-DNA matches. N115337 Burney receives the first 12 Marker results and donates $40: thank you!

Mid. Aug. 2013: Major find by Geno 2.0 result of kit 262925 from KSA: The clade J2a-L198 (former J2a4i) is PF5169+! Most probably (by STR networks) he is a brother clade to L1064 sharing unknown upstream SNPs. According to current evidence L1064 and PF5174 are brother clades to L198. This result was somehow expected because L198 is Z2227,PF5116- and the nearest remaining cluster in J2a was *H-L1064. Welcome to all new potential members in this clade. It is very exciting that the paternal lineage of Bonnie Schrack, the major Y-DNA J researcher since 2006, is L198 and she now shares the personal interest in PF5197 history and research. Update of Results page with L198 haplogroup and haplotypes.
And another important update: Geno 2.0 kit RD4245WW Melito contacts project admin ChrisR (thanks to Geno 2.0 paternal story from TaylorP) and did send his raw data. The surname is from his grandfather, an orphan with South Italian heritage. He is PF5172+, PF5190+, PF5233+ and introduces a split between PF5197/Z2397 and PF5169! So far it is the only public kit known to be in this paragroup.
The advances in SNP tree position research are shown in this image: J2a-M410 (xL24,M67) Phylogeny research 1.6b (Short URLs to the folder: gdriv.es/j2a-m410 or tinyurl.com/J2a-M410). J2a-PF5197 Project files under this short URL: gdriv.es/J2a-PF5197.
Discovered in J2a-PF5197+ samples in 1000 Genomes with the help of Gregory Magoon et al. (1kG.YTree.A-C) the following new SNP series for for future subclade research where registered in Public "whole genome" chrY data analysis: Z6067-Z6095.

Begin Aug. 2013
: N37321 Tyrone is finally confirmed L1064+ for the public. N115337 Burney (PF5177+) does order Y-DNA37. Major Y-phylogeny papers came out, one of them Francalacci et al. 2013 who analyzes the Y-sequences of 1,000 Sardinian men. Their SNPs have the PF prefix and are very useful for the main J2a-clades (M67, L24, PF5169, PF5008). In J2a-PF5169 the PF5177 lineage was covered by the sequencing. Further analysis may unveil if other PF5174 lineages are included in the Sardinian dataset. New age estimations based on the latest publications (see MolGen): J2a-Z2221 and J2a-PF5197 are expected to have occured shortly after J2a-L26 (approx. 15,000 years). Therefore:
J2a-PF5197 ca. 13,000 years (pre-Neolithic)
J2a-YSC0000253 ca. 7,000 years,
J2a-PF5174 ca. 8,000 years.
No estimations for PF5169 and L1064 age, because there is no Y-sequence in L1064 available for comparison. This Y-SNP tree estimates seem much older then those based on Y-STR-Markers. But they certainly are more accurate and fit well with the beginning of Agricultural expansion to Europe ca. 9,000 years ago, especially for J2a-M67 subclades (Mediterranean modal J2a-haplotpye). Looking at the Y-STR variance L1064 might be not older then YSC0000253 and younger then PF5174. PF5169 could be approx. 11,000 years. In the future good time estimations for all the subclusters using a Y-SNP model for the ancient calibration and 111 Marker kits to build the bridge from the present could be possible. Currently too many clusters have only 37 or 67 Markers. Therefore the accuracy currently is low to build the whole J2a-PF5197 tree with great confidence.
294898 Munoz joins the project. He has tested with Geno 2.0 and is a good match on 37 markers to 2a*H03 W.Med Ibero-English PF5169+ L1064+. E4955 Kaserer is confirmed PF5169+.

End July 2013
: YSC0000253 funded (by 198631 Khan) for 253629 Svaneti, L1064 funded (by N37321 Tyrone) for N88317 Yedidya. 255106 Bennett has announced to consider a Marker upgrade. First STR 37+ analysis of PF5197 clades and clusters visible under Google Drive > J2a-PF5197 public > STR-Trees. By this analysis N88317 Yedidya was moved to L1064 speculative. N37321 Tyrone donated 19$ and ordered L1064. N115337 Burney (PF5177+) joined the project.

Mid. July 2013
: Huge confirmation of diversity of PF5197 clades: by analysis of 1000 Genomes male samples classified as J2a1* (J2a-L26*) by yfull.com 67 Marker results for nine! Y-sequences are PF5197+: HG03615▶BEB-Bengali, HG03660▶ & HG03021▶PJL-Punjabi, HG02493▶ & HG02733▶PJL-Punjabi, HG03012▶ & HG03905▶BEB-Bengali, HG04107▶ & HG04003▶STU-Tamil.
134080 Costa's 67 Marker results do enhance the insight in to the relations of the J2a-L1064 group. According to calculations the new 50% probability distance in generations to the nearest kits (in parentesis the previous distance with only 37 Markers):
  • 21 (25): 33308 Weeks US
  • 23 (29): N37321 Taylor England
  • 31 (27): Perez Eusebio Mexico SMGF.org
  • 31 (27): Lugers 1726-1821 Lower Saxony Germany SMGF.org
  • 38 (33): N65610 Santen Unknown Origin 

While the relation to the two "english men" Weeks and Taylor is confirmed with aditional markers and now nearer with a distance of ca. 22 generations. Given that one generation is 31 years this would be a distance of 682 years. On the other hand the distance to the other kits (Perez, Lugers, Santen) has slightly increased, indicating that the common ancestor is more distant then to the two english men. This was not visible before.
According to this result W.Med Iberic and W.Med English cluster groups are merged. Costa is even more surely positive for PF5169beeing so near to N37321 Taylor. For confirmation of this common ancestor above L1064, it would be still interesting to test sometime in the future for this SNP. There is no need to do it now, as we hopefully discover new structure and maybe a more interesting SNP will be available.
255106 Bennett (12 Markers) joins the project. He is near (11/12) to 122074 Gardner,Galarneau. His 12 Marker match is 237473 Moore from Ireland with 37 Markers. This speculative cluster seems to have an Atlantic (French-Irish) distribution. Let's hope Bennett and Moore are interested in further research together with Gardner,Galarneau.
PF4341 is recurrent in at least 3 different haplogroups (J2a see this project, R1a-Z94 kit N113205, R1b-L21 kit 60163, source semargl SNP list) and therefore unreliable and not valid for haplogroup discrimination (see ISOGG rules: "it is expected ... that the polymorphism has not been observed more than twice in human history").
Current Y-SNP status - FTDNA kits positive/tested by single order (ytree.ftdna J2a-L26, J2a-L250)

  • L26: 443/1050
  • Z2221: 3/21, Z2220: 2/23, Z2222: 1/21
  • Z2397: 0/5
  • PF4341: 0/16, YSC0000253: 0/164
  • YSC0000246: 0/10,
  • L1064: 10/591, L250.2: 7/483, L251.2: 6/484

Thomas K. (FTDNA Lab) answered about the two unknown L1064 samples and they are both J2a-L26. So this is the current L1064+ situation:
7 Public: E4955 Kaser, M7436 Al-Ajeel Al-Askar, 166314 Maksoudian, 33308 Weeks, 134080 Costa, 122074 Galarneau, M7424 Al-Saleh,
2 Public Unufficial: N37321 Taylor, 199120 T Riyadh Saudi Arabia,
1 Private: J2a-L26 Saudi Arabia, 

Begin July 2013: 20 kits have joined, some from other haplogroups. 271582 Najd is negative for YSC0000246: new split introduced.

End June 2013
: This kits are under 62 gen. (67 Markers) away from current project haplotpyes and therefore good Cluster *B candidates for PF5169:
M8463 AlBaluoshi eissa Jamal albaluoshi Kuwait J2
N99894 Rohr Germany J2
E12430 Nazaryan, Gharaghan, Iran Iran J2a4
166329 Armenia J2a4
182122 Milito Ignazio 1819 - Italy J2a4
M7843 AL-BAKRY Saudi Arabia J2
M6398 United Arab Emirates J2
M6424 United Arab Emirates J2
E11451 Joaquín Márquez, nacido 1910 Unknown Origin J2

26 June 2013
: Project was founded by ChrisR. Initial haplogroup evidence June 2013 (SNPs in Geno 2.0 chip, SNPs available for FTDNA order):
  • PF5197/Z2397, Z2394, Z2395, Z2396, L776
    • YSC0000246, YSC0000253, PF4341.1 (Cluster *D)
      198631 Khan, N3437 Patel, N5341 Dimitrov, B1620 Albaghdadi, NA20884 GIH-Gujaratis
    • PF5169, PF5172, PF5176, PF5190, PF5191, PF5207, PF5233
      • L1064, L250.2, L251.2 (Cluster *H)
        N37321 Taylor, Kohl/Yaeger
      • PF5174, PF5199, PF5215, PF5216
        248045 Barela (near to Cluster *B?), N114846 Razack, NA21090 GIH-Gujaratis, PGP141
        • PF5177, PF5221, PF7421, PF7423
          N76290 Higgins
      • CTS3183.2 (only by transfer to FTDNA, questionable)
        N88317 Yedidia


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Pre J2a-PF5197 project news
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