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Are you a member of the H-YHaplo project?
Donald Locke Donald Locke
October 29 @ 11:58pm
Guess it has been a while since I explained this, and I will explain this again for newer members to the project. I use the SNP long version from the ISOGG web site for one main reason, to help keep the SNP branches in order on the project web page. Some people like the long version, others think it is out dated which maybe true. Regardless, I use the long version as a means to keep each main branch in order on the project web page. If ISOGG has your long version listed incorrectly, then I recommend you taking that up directly with ISOGG and see if you can get them to change your long version. I am not a part of the ISOGG team, so I have no say so in getting changes made.
Donald Locke
October 30 @ 12:06am
I bring this subject up again because it was brought to my attention that we have two groups with the same long version identity. H1a1a4b3b1a Z5890, Z12533, Z12534 Z5890 and Z12533 are both listed under the long version H1a1a4b3b1a, that is ISOGG's doing, not mine. In the project I have 2 groups, one is H1a1a4b3b1a Z5890 The other is H1a1a4b3b1a Z12533 Same long version, but only because ISOGG has done that placement, not me. If you disagree with that long version description, that can be taken up directly with the ISOGG people, and if you can convince them to change the long version, I will be more then happy to change it on the project web page, other wise I am just following their lead.
Donald Locke
October 30 @ 12:10am
"Some" H SNP's may not be listed on the ISOGG web site, and when that happens, I guestimate where your long version would fall in the tree. Understand my reasoning here, in order to get the project web page to show the SNP's in order, means using the long version, even if that long version is not 100% accurate. Go by the short version, not the long version, the long version is just there to keep the SNP's in order nothing more.
William Stanley
Yesterday at 12:15pm
My brother's Y-DNA Test Kit shows that his Haplogroup is H1a1a4b3b1a. If I were to go to the ISOGG website, would I enter his Kit Number?
Naveed Butt Naveed Butt
September 4 @ 6:34pm
Hi Don! I hope all is well, I am still alive ! :)
Donald Locke
September 5 @ 12:32pm
Naveed! I had about given up hope on hearing from you again, hope you are well! :)
Naveed Butt
October 26 @ 2:46pm
still going around the world! heading to indonasia next week. last 12 months, I have been to Iraq, Bangladesh (2), Jordan, Qatar, Tunisia and Senegal!
Warren Perera (Baumgartner) Warren Perera (Baumgartner)
August 30 @ 9:27pm
I came across this very informative link on "Working with the New Big Y Results (hg38)". Hope you will find it useful (Published in Jan 2018)
Alan Smith Alan Smith
August 26 @ 2:20am
Hi I am Alan Smith, I have not posted here before, I know very little about my Smiths and am looking for any links to my Grandfather William Smith b1892 who unfortunately left the marital home in 1933 and apparently nobody knew where he went or what happened to him, he married my Grandmother in 1916 East Ham, Essex and from the Marriage Cert we know his father was George but don't know where William or George were born so cannot track, Army information drew a blank also. Anyway I took the Y37 to see if it came up with anything but unfortunately I cannot find the links with the names there or the Smiths that popped up. After taking the Ancestry DNA however I have established that there are Romany roots. Alan
1 Comment
Donald Locke
August 28 @ 3:36am
Welcome to the project Alan! As you may have noticed, you are not alone in the project, there are multiple Romanichal Smith's in the project and I would highly recommend you getting in contact with them and exchange family tree information with one another to see if you can figure out who the common ancestor is.
Donald Locke
August 28 @ 4:23am
Alan. You have not been SNP tested yet, your H-L901 is just a prediction, but I can tell you that if you were to be SNP tested for H - M82, that you will likely be positive for M82 based on who you are a Y DNA match with. While I know a lot about my Lock family history, there are still a few mysteries to be solved still. My ancestor Richard Lock b. date unknown ( late 1600's or early to mid 1700's ) in England, came to the American Colonies in the 1750's. I do not know if he came willingly, or by force as a convict? What I do know for certain is, Richard Lock is the eldest of all the paper trail documented Lock / Locke of Romanichal ancestry, he is easily 2 generations older then Matthew Lock of England, making it a real possibility that Richard Lock is the grand father, possibly the great grand father of Matthew Lock. Richard Lock was already in Colonial Virginia and he had leased a track of land in Frederick County Virginia in 1763, before Matthew Lock was even born in England. When Richard Lock leased that track of land in 1763, one of his sons is also named on that land deed, Richard Lock Jr. which means Richard Lock Jr. was of age in order to be named on a land deed lease, and that means Richard Jr was at least age 21 or older in 1763. That then means even Richard Jr was an adult before Matthew Lock was born and Matthew was born in the 1770's in England. This is why I think it plausible that Richard Lock Sr. to be the grand father, possibly great grand father of Matthew Lock. Both the Lock and Locke spellings are correct, but Lock is the original spelling and it wasn't until the mid 1800's when some sides of the family started spelling it Locke. So I tend to revert back to using the original Lock spelling when discussing the family tree. Prior to Y DNA testing, we had no idea my ancestor Richard Lock was even related to Matthew Lock, but after Y DNA and SNP testing, it is safe to say they are one and the same Lock lineage, We still do not know how Richard Lock and Matthew Lock are related, we are still working on the paper records in the UK to try to figure out their kinship to each other, but Y DNA and SNP testing conclusively proves they are indeed related. Part of the issue is, the Matthew Lock side of the tree needs to be better documented, and I am doing what I can on that issue from the states. While a lot of people have claimed that Matthew Lock is the son of Henry Lock, I think there needs to be more research to back that claim up. I have a fairly good though incomplete tree on the descendants of Matthew Lock given to me by one of the Locke Y DNA participants in the UK some years ago. I will go back through that tree to see if I can pick out any Smith connections and share them with you in case it helps you with your tree research. Some have claimed the Lock surname is an alias surname of Boswell, that a Boswell at some point in time, changed his surname to Lock. Y DNA and SNP testing does confirm that the Lock's and Boswell's are indeed a close 67 marker Y DNA match, but that kinship maybe older then being given credit for. While I agree that it is highly likely some where back in time, the Lock's and Boswell's shared a common male ancestor, but that it maybe a more distant kinship then some people have claimed. Some people based their opinions on Matthew Lock was the first to use the Lock surname which is not correct, because they did not know of my ancestor Richard Lock to be able to form those opinions. The Lock surname was already in use long before the birth of Matthew Lock by at least 2 generations.
Donald Locke
August 28 @ 5:46am
Another important thing to point out in regards to the Lock family, far to many people tend to focus their research just on Matthew Lock, but there was another Lock who was a bit older then Matthew Lock, named George Lock in England whom is equally important to the bigger picture. The name George Lock is a name very commonly used in the early generations with the descendants of Richard Lock Sr., in fact I am directly descended from 2 Lock men by the name of George Lock! Naming patterns can be important when researching our family trees. Merrick Lock Christening: January 27th, 1782 Biddulph, Stafford, England Parents: George Lock & Elizabeth Merrick Lock Marriage date and place unknown to me To: Mary Smith Merrick Lock 2nd marriage Marriage date: April 16, 1821 Chedworth, Gloucestershire, England To: Mary Lee I know this goes way beyond the scope of your Smith tree research, but our trees are connected no doubts in my mind. :) Ambrose William Smith Marriage date: September 28, 1907 Bosbury, Herefordshire, England To: Cinderella Lock Arthur Lock ( son of John Lock )  Marriage date: June 24, 1878 Bloxwich, Staffordshire, England To: Louisa Smith ( daughter of Thomas Smith ) She might also be known as Lumba Smith? Extract from Robert Dawson's book on the Boswells "I have independent evidence that the Boswell - Locks frequently associated with Smiths who were close relatives of 'Gipsy' Rodney Smith's forebears. Both groups used to stop together on land owned by the Turner family (Lord Netherthorpe) Margaret Lock Marriage date and place unknown to me To: Elijah Smith
Alan Smith
August 28 @ 10:26am
Thank you for all that Donald, very Interesting, I know very little on my Smith side and its been dead end after dead end and very frustrating, I will look into getting SNP tested. Thanks so much, Alan
Robert Campbell Robert Campbell
August 23 @ 9:58am
Donald Locke
August 26 @ 2:06am
Good news! Thanks for taking the Big Y Robert! I have placed you in with the other H-BY153075 participants, which includes PH124 and PH2223. The reason I have not made separate sub groupings for those three SNP's is because those who tested positive for PH124 were not tested for PH2223 or H-BY153075. The same applies for those placed in PH2223 were not tested for BY153075. I think it highly likely had everyone in this group were to be tested for BY153075, all the group participants would likely be positive for BY153075.
Donald Locke
August 26 @ 2:10am
Sorry for the late response, my wife and I were out of town celebrating our 40th wedding anniversary. :)
Robert Campbell
August 26 @ 9:50am
Congratulations Donald!!
Donald Locke
August 28 @ 3:45am
Thanks Robert! All in all, we had a good time. There were some pit falls to renting a cabin in a tourist trap of a town, lots of people, tons of traffic, and lots of drunks being loud in the middle of the night disturbing my sleep, but we still had a good time and even got a days worth of fishing in. :)
Donald Locke Donald Locke
July 3 @ 11:36am
Another reminder for all project participants. This is a Y Haplogroup project, which means by joining this project that you are interested in learning more about your Y Haplogroup. Unfortunately we do not have many SNP options to choose from because there are so few H* participants in the FTDNA database. Individual SNP upgrades are quite limited, we can order H - M52, H-M82, H-M69 as individual upgrades, but not much more then that as individual SNP upgrades yet. So really the only other option is the Big Y test to do our SNP testing which is an expensive option, but I think is well worth the money in the long run. Some participants joined with a 12 marker Y DNA test and quite honestly 12 markers tells you so very little and you would be better served by upgrading to the 67 marker level one day in the future. You get out of DNA what you put in to it plain and simple. I am asking that all H participants in this project to seriously consider doing some upgrades, so much more can be learned by having more participants upgrading to a higher marker level, and for those whom can afford to, to upgrade to the Big Y test. With just the small handful of participants whom have already upgraded to the Big Y test, the Y Haplogroup H tree has grown over the last 2 years like we have not seen in the last decade. Anything we as participants can do to advance the Y Haplogroup H* tree benefits all H* participants in the long run. We all have to remember something here, we are in the minority because there are so few H* participants in the FTDNA database compared to most all other Y Haplogroups. If we want the H tree to grow and be given more SNP options, we the participants have to do it ourselves and that means doing more upgrades to make the H SNP tree grow. We the participants have to prove to FTDNA that we are willing to do those upgrades in order to get more individual SNP upgrades made available in the future. Individual SNP upgrades are considerably cheaper then the Big Y test, and ultimately we want certain SNP's being made available as individual SNP upgrades one day so those whom can not afford the Big Y have a cheaper option to get themselves to their terminal SNP as cheaply as possible. Just as an example, say we want H - PH124 made available as a single SNP upgrade, the only way FTDNA is going to consider that is for a lot more participants proving to be in H - PH124 and by proving that, they will be more comfortable in making that SNP available as a single SNP upgrade, they are in it to make money after all, they have to have the confidence that it is going to make them money in the long run before they make an SNP available as a single SNP upgrade. That ultimately means we need more Big Y participants in the project to be able to convince them that we are serious about advancing the Y Haplo H tree.
Donald Locke
August 27 @ 1:04pm
Hi Alan, yes that is me and my many cousins whom you are a match with. :) If I recall correctly, there are 17 of us Lock / Locke men Y DNA tested now. There is actually one more Locke Y DNA tested, but he is not Y DNA tested with the Family Tree DNA company, he Y DNA tested for the Leicester University British Romany DNA study, and he shared his Y DNA results with me and he is a match as well. So technically there are 18 of us Y DNA tested, but only 17 tested with FTDNA
Donald Locke
August 27 @ 1:08pm
Two of the cousins are in the UK, they are the direct descendants of Matthew Lock and Rememberance Boswell, the rest are in the USA.
Alan Smith
August 28 @ 1:35am
Ah thank you, so I must have a connection there, I know a Smith married an Eve Locke but not yet able to connect all of it up. Thank you once again, I will have to see what I can find.
Donald Locke
August 28 @ 3:34am
Well the connection goes much deeper then both the Locke's and Smith's. Every Rrom Y DNA tested to the 67 marker level regardless his surname, has proven to carry the same null value marker mutation, known as marker DYS 425 = 0 null value. Once a genetic marker, any marker, mutates to a null value, it MUST then be passed down from father to sons, generation after generation as a null value, that marker can never resort to having a value again. This is the important aspect to understand, to date of all the Rrom Y DNA tested to the 67 marker level regardless our surnames, 100% proved to carry the same null value marker mutation. That seemingly then suggests all Rrom Y Haplogroup H - M82 Y DNA participants shared a common male ancestor some time with in the last 2000 years, since the time the Romany migrated to Europe. Rrom from Bulgaria, Russia, Hungary, Italy, Moldova, and England have Y DNA tested and we all share the same null value marker mutation. Even if we are not a close 67 marker match to one another, does not distract from the fact that we each share that one marker in common. I am 100% convinced that all the Y Haplogroup H - M82 Rrom participants are indeed related to one another, even if it is a kinship that dates back up to 2000 years ago. We may never know who that male ancestor was, but it seems he is the grand father to all the Rrom Y Haplogroup H - M82 Y DNA participants. As it stands right now, there is no other H - M82 male population known to carry this null value marker mutation outside the Roma / Romany male population of Europe. That could change once more men of South Asia get involved in Y DNA testing. If you were to be Y DNA tested to the 67 marker level, I think it safe to say you too would very likely carry DYS 425 as a null value as well. And I think it also safe to presume you will be positive for H - M82 if you were to tested for M82. But H - M82 isn't the whole answer. Over the last year, several Rrom have Big Y DNA tested which is an expensive test, and we all were moved from H - M82 in to a much deeper SNP downstream of M82. There are actually 2 Rrom groupings in the project now, those whom have not been Big Y tested, and those whom have been Big Y tested. Because of the cost of the Big Y test, I fully understand that not everyone can afford to take that test, but for those whom can afford that test, I would recommend ordering the Big Y test. The more Rrom Big Y tested, all the better in the long run. The more we can prove to ourselves that we share a common male ancestor, helps not only us the participant better understand our own paternal history, but it will in the long run help the genetic academic community better understand our ethnic ancestry and origins too. There is a much larger story going on here then just our surnames like Smith and Locke, that story goes a lot deeper to a time before the use of surnames and it directly involves every Rrom paternal lineage regardless our surnames used today. If you visit the project web page, and look at both Romany groupings, you will start to better understand the importance of us proving to carry the same null value marker mutation. And some of those very same participants whom have Big Y tested are proving to be a Big Y DNA match to other Rrom even though they may not be a close higher level Y DNA match.
Robert Campbell Robert Campbell
August 23 @ 9:55am
Big Y Results are in! H-BY153075
Warren Perera (Baumgartner) Warren Perera (Baumgartner)
August 2 @ 7:17pm
Hi, Is it possible for me to pay to test a few SNPs of one of the project members of whom I have a close interest in.
Donald Locke
August 3 @ 8:56pm
Yes it can be done. First you have to get the participants expressed permission in writing, then that written permission has to be sent to me before any order can be made. FTDNA requires me to have written permission, via email is ok, to be able to make an order on their behalf through the project. You have to be certain that the SNP you want to order is available as a single SNP upgrade. If the SNP you are wanting them tested for is not on the individual SNP order list, apparently there is little I can do about getting that SNP added. In the past, I have tried to get certain H SNP's added as individual SNP's, and I got told there is a bunch of red tape to get those SNP's added, and so far I have not had any luck getting any H SNP's added to the individual SNP order list. The last step would be making the proper dollar amount donation to the project to cover the costs and taxes of those SNP orders.
Warren Perera (Baumgartner)
August 4 @ 4:42pm
Thanks Don. I will email you about this.
Warren Perera (Baumgartner) Warren Perera (Baumgartner)
July 28 @ 4:03am
Hi Don, As expected my block tree has changed moving only the other two participants to a different subclade and leaving me alone. It was not surprising as I had over 250 private variants which has now come down to 56. I was quite sure that I did not have the SNP H-Z5890 and hence did not belong in the same group you had placed me - H1a1a4b3b1a. Having spent loads of time researching my STR results, I joined the Armenian Project which has the closes genetic STR results to mine. They have since grouped me under a classification - Non-Armenian with Close Genetic Markers.
Donald Locke Donald Locke
July 3 @ 10:52am
For those of you whom have also done the Family Finder DNA test. Under your Family Finder results is a clickable link, Advanced Matches, click on that link. Then check mark Family Finder and then click on Run Report. Now that you are in that Advanced Family Finder report, you will see your matches have both their Y DNA or mtDNA Haplogroup's listed, both are clickable links. If you want to say look at a specific Haplogroup like Y Halogroup H, click on the Y Haplogroup link. Once that is clicked, you will need to scroll through your Family Finder matches until you come to your matches whom are in Y Haplogroup H*. You maybe surprised to learn that in some of your autosomal DNA matches that you have autosomal matches to other Y Haplogroup H* participants. I am using one of the Smith Family Finder advanced matches report here as the example since he has more then a few matches to H participants. The same can be done for mtDNA Haplogroups if you are looking to see if a specific mt Haplogroup is in your FF matches. Just another interesting way of looking at your Family FInder matches. :)
Donald Locke
July 3 @ 10:56am
Some where in that Smith family tree, he is some how related to every one of those Y Haplogroup H participants. So we don't just share the same Haplogroup, we also share autosomal DNA in common too. And as you see from that match list, most of the matches are fairly distantly related matches. We may never know who the common ancestor was, but it is still an interesting tid bit of information to know each of those Y Haplo H participants shares autosomal DNA with this Smith too. And of those matches, we know 2 of those matches have Big Y 500 tested and are positive for H - PH124.