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R DF21 and Subclades

  • 1479 members
Are you a member of the R DF21 and Subclades project?
James Cosgrave James Cosgrave
July 9 @ 3:04pm
Patrick Cosgrove (kit B427056) and I (kit 468983) share paternal line ancestry from Antrim, Northern Ireland, and are both R-FGC9749. At 111 markers, we show a genetic distance of 5, and our Big-Y STR differences is 4 of 600. Patrick just received his Big-Y results and we share 761,197 of the total 782,933 variants considered. I have 25 private variants and Patrick shares 19 of them. Patrick has 2 additional private variants that I do not share. Can anyone suggest how closely we are related from the above information? Suggestions for next steps would also be appreciated. Thanks.
Donald Ward
August 4 @ 2:27pm
James, the period of Time between your Birth and that of your Most-Recent Common Male Ancestor shared with Patrick is about the same as that from Patrick's Birth to the aforementioned MRCA. So, in that Time Period, his Branch accumulated only Two Mutations while yours accumulated Five. The Average (6+2)/2 is SNPs. The estimate for Average Mutation Rate for a Single SNP from Big-Y has been stated as 118-Years, so you are looking at an MRCA who could have been born as far back as 590-Years (Maximum), but a fair estimate might be closer to 3.5 * 118 = 472-Years before your Birth. Using the same logic in reference to the amount of Time passed, and assuming that the number of accumulated Y-STR differences are about even in each Branch, your Y-STR GD=4 (for an Average of 4/2=2) could say that your MRCA was born no earlier than 2 * 454 = 908-Years before your Birth. I believe that the SNP estimate is more accurate and maybe a bit high, but it's still possible that you are still looking for an MRCA as far back as 1360a.d., despite the obvious Surname Match.
James Cosgrave
12 hours ago
Thanks for the feedback Donald.
Arthur Barker
11 hours ago
James, a subject that was already quite complex has been made more so with the introduction of Big Y-700. A few years ago, there was a debate about SNP frequency. The principals at YFull published a scientific paper that indicated the SNP frequency was 144.41 years, that is, along a SNP sequence a new SNP would appear once every 144.41 years. They used that in their date estimate computations. Don Ward has indicated from his research that the scientific consensus was about once in every 118 years or so. Rory Cain has said that from his own, extensive family testing, that the frequency is more like once in every 67 years. Part of the problem here is with which NGS test is being used. YFull's initial report reflected mostly Big Y and Big Y-500 (which for SNPs was the same test) and therefore had more limited coverage of the Y-chromosome than FGC's Y Elite 2.1 or YSEQ's WGS, among others. Obviously, if you test fewer places to find SNPs, you will find fewer SNPs. It was a wonderful example of not trying to compare estimates from the tests by different companies. Initially, my extended family has SNP frequencies that were more like what YFull indicated from three Big Y tests. But now with seven Big Y-700 (two replacement and five new) tests, we see something different -- 38 SNPs over a period of something like 3,150 year or so, about one every 83 years, assuming the pre-genealogical span is accurate. The problem with SNPs, which was always there, but now more so is the subjectivity involved in determining whether they are actually there or not, that is, their quality and thus acceptability. Of those 38, 14 were discovered originally by an unknown Cousin of ours who apparently took some kind of superior coverage test as a volunteer for the Harvard Medical School. In addition to those 14, another is shared with us by a large number of Early Cluster descendants of Z16294, according to FTDNA. To give you some idea of the ambiguity of this, FTDNA currently indicates this Early Cluster SNP Block is composed of four SNPs, one of which has never been called on an NGS test at FTDNA that I am aware of. YFull, on the other hand, who was the first organization to identify the Early Cluster, back in early 2016, shows three SNPs in that block, but two of those are different than the ones given by FTDNA and those other two are two other SNPs (not the one used by FTDNA) discovered on the DNA of the Cousin at Harvard Medical School. So, of all seven total SNPs, these two companies only agree on one, Y24868, discovered by YFull in early 2016. Thus, how many SNPs are actually there and which ones are they? I respectfully disagree with my Distant Genetic Cousin Don on the question of dating. Only over long periods of multiple thousands of years can SNPs be considered a superior dating tool to the traditional 111 STRs (not the Trans-111 STRs which change so slowly on average that they make SNPs look quick), as long as you have enough Y-111 Kits to construct an Apparent Ancestral Haplotype (AAH) of the two more ancestors involved. This AAH is an attempted genetic reconstruction of these ancestors and it provides you with something of an average genetic drift from them because STRs vary just as much as apparent SNPs in terms of their number. It really is nothing more than the STR allele modals created for lineages (groups, extended families) that you see in countless project results tables to indicate "who they are" genetically -- their STR genetic signature or picture. And by using the work of others, such as Dr. J. Douglas McDonald at the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana, you can provide reasonable date estimates that include a relatively small number of generations. Using an underlying Poisson Distribution and the Infinite Alleles Method, Dr. McDonald's charts and tables will show you a range of when two people (or better two wings) last share a common patrilineal ancestor, like the TiP tool here at FTDNA.
James Cosgrave
8 hours ago
Arthur, thanks for the detailed response.
Arthur  Barker Arthur Barker
11 hours ago
Rory, in a survey I just completed for a new, private Research Group, I saw two things that were puzzling to me and I do not know if you know anything about these. Two Kits in the Northwestern Irish Tribe of Z16294 have yDNA SNP Badges currently that are SNPs in another sub-branch of DF13 -- Kit N78454 is showing CTS114 and Kit 780643 is displaying CTS4466. Both Kits have STR genetic signatures that clearly place them with the Campbells, Wards, Corcorans and others of this Subclade of Z16294. Perhaps this represents some change in the phylogeny, but I understand that FTDNA is presently having significant computer problems. The other thing I noticed is even more puzzling unless there has been some change in the methodology. Two Kits have yDNA SNP Badges that show SNPs that are not selected labels of blocks, but are other SNPs in that block. Again, this could represent an interim configuration prior to the display of a block breakage and an update of the phylogeny, but with the mismatch in Y-chromosome coverage of Big Y-700 with that for Big Y/Big Y-500, and the possible failure in the hope that a large number of customers will replace their older tests, perhaps they are moving toward some kind of kit-specific solution to assign called SNPs to individual kits, regardless of the phylogenetic impact on the Haplotree? Do you have any thoughts about these? Thanks.
Sidney Griffith Sidney Griffith
July 14 @ 2:11pm
I'm a Griffith of Welsh origin. I've requested membership. I have my Y-111 results thus far. I'm waiting on the Y-700. My family came from North Wales, particularly Anglesey.
Rory Cain
July 14 @ 8:28pm
In that case it would be premature for me to place your kit anywhere right now. Best I wait for your Big Y.
Sidney Griffith
August 3 @ 8:27am
My Big Y results are in. I'm R-FGC76175.
Sidney Griffith
August 6 @ 10:22am
Updated to R-BY75265.
John McFadden John McFadden
August 2 @ 6:32pm
Hi, I'm John McFadden & was recommended to join this group from a member from the R_R1b All Subclades group based on my Big Y results. Candidly speaking, I looked at the surnames for this group and didn't see any that have been associated with me (McFadden, Barrett & Adams). I'm walking with a white cane and listening to those who have much more knowledge regarding DNA than I do. So, if someone in this group wouldn't mind, please review my Big Y results (kit 932969) and help understand how this group can benefit me. The more DNA tests I take (AncestryDNA, Y-37 & Big Y-700) the less I know. A little bit about my objective. I'm tracing my McFadden linage and the earliest ancestor is my 3x gg grandfather Charles Bartley McFadden (1797-1868) born in KY and died in Johnson County, IN. The results from my Y-37 test determined my ancestors originated from County Mayo under the Barrett name. I have three matches from my Big Y-700 results which two are Barretts. However, with all my research, I have not been able to find any Barretts who can provide any information on how the Barrett name and McFadden name merged or whatever. No Barrett has popped up in my search on Ancestry and it's a gap. Looking for some expertise opinion related to my DNA results regarding the surnames Barrett and McFadden from County Mayo. Thank you.
Rory Cain
August 2 @ 7:48pm
John, your haplogroup is a sub-clade of R-L513, which is mutually exclusive with R-DF21. The advice to join this group was erroneous. R-L513 is frequently found along the west coast of Ireland & Scotland and would be reasonably consistent with origins in Co Mayo. But that is about as far as we can advise, as R-L513 is not our area of expertise.
Leland McDaniel Leland McDaniel
July 22 @ 7:35pm
Leland Barmore McDaniel, kit #270994, R-BY39831 My dad died in 2018 at the age of 99. In 2013 I submitted his DNA to FTDNA. Over the years, I upgraded several times and last year my Christmas present to myself was paying for the Big Y 700 test on whatever was left of his DNA. The results came in on July 8. I have spent the last week learning about the Big Y 700 test, but there is plenty I don’t understand. It was recommended that I join this group. I can use any help you can offer me. Thanks, Susan McDaniel Aigner
Rory Cain
July 22 @ 9:46pm
Hello Susan, welcome. Leland's kit matches a McDaniel/ McDonald/McDonnell group within the old Airghialla tribal confederation of south Ulster. Some also use the name Clan Colla. The eponymous ancestor Colla may have been real or may have been a fabrication. Therefore I prefer the name Airghialla myself. See
Lawrence Corcoran
July 29 @ 2:04pm
Hello Susan, I suggest that you check out the following website as I think that you might find it very informative on your father's SNP results. All the best, Lawrence Corcoran. DNA of the Three Collas-PetersPioneers
Leland McDaniel
July 29 @ 8:41pm
Hello, Lawrence. I joined the Clan Colla Project quite a while ago. I have been in contact with the administrators about my dad's Big Y results and have seen the Peters Pioneers info. Thanks for the suggestion.
Ronald Gillespie Ronald Gillespie
July 28 @ 7:22pm
With the new format of the haplogroup tree and Big Y 700 tree how will you see what mutations show up on other parts of the tree?
Rory Cain
July 29 @ 1:20am
That’s getting harder as the tree grows exponentially
Ronald Gillespie Ronald Gillespie
July 9 @ 5:38pm
Hmmm Rory what kind of placement did you do with my haplogroup 282809?
Ronald Gillespie
July 15 @ 3:36pm
I guess looking at anything on there has me wondering what it is this tree stays here constantly and I barely look at it. Maybe my big 700 hundred will produce something. I can look everywhere else and see something.
Rory Cain
July 21 @ 10:22pm
Ron, if nobody tests, nothing changes. And if only you test, only your haplogroup changes. The others need to d something. You have have done two things right- done Big Y yourself, & got your uncle to join. I accept that he would be R-Y94231 like yourself, had he tested for it. Therefore I have created a new R-Y94132 sub group.
Ronald Gillespie
July 22 @ 12:59am
Where is that at?
Rory Cain
July 22 @ 9:47pm
Same place
David Quinlan c/o Marilyn Quinlan David Quinlan c/o Marilyn Quinlan has a question!
July 15 @ 10:17am
David Quinlan's Big-Y changes his haplotype to BY-23444, descended from DF-21. He seems to share that type with three others but other than that I'm not sure what to make of it. Can you help me understand what that means. One gentleman reports Swedish paternally, Scottish Isles maternally. The other have no information given. David's great grandfather came from County Clare, Ireland, born around 1864 but I've not found anything further.
Rory Cain
July 21 @ 10:18pm
Yes, indeed, his BY23444 result puts David in with Holmes, who is also his nearest match at Y111. If you open your FTDNA account, click matches, click TIP, you will see that David has a 87% chance of sharing a common ancestor with Holmes within 8 generations. That's maybe 250 years. David's connection with Murphy is further back & may not who up on TIP. You might have to do a manual count of mismatches. This is shaping up to be an Irish haplogroup.
Eric Smith Eric Smith
June 30 @ 10:23pm
Hello. I just received my BigY results today and I’m R-BY24841. Said I had 3 dna relatives. One was in my block and is my first cousin “Smith.” The other two were just one block over to the left listed as Stewart and Ross. I see the Scottish flag in my block and just to the left of me, but see the Northern Ireland flag just to my right. Any insight or suggestions are appreciated. Thanks!
Eric Smith
July 1 @ 2:01am
Also, am I interpreting this correctly when I say that R-BY23441 which is a snp right above mine was in Northern Ireland according to snp tracker then came back to Scotland where my snp 'R-BY24841' happened and then again traveled even further north in scotland where it had another final snp which is present day R-BY23930 and still in Scotland? How can I find out these men's surnames that are just above my snp 'northern Ireland' and just downstream from me 'modern day Scotland?' Does this mean my paternal lineage migrated from Scotland after my snp and before the terminal downstream R-BY23930? Could I potentially discover where they lived in Northern Ireland/Scotland? Could my surname potentially change?
Emmet Cosgrove
July 3 @ 2:36pm
You might find joining the Ireland yDNA Project (FTDNA) , and look to see if they any members that share your terminal SNP. There is a Scots-Irish project, but they request that you have some evidence that your ancestors came from Scotland.
Rory Cain
July 9 @ 4:10pm
When placing this kit, I noticed the likely Scots origin of the surnames Stewart and Ross. As Ross tends to be Northern Scots & Stewart tends to be southern Scots, I made no further conclusions. This is a fairly recently discovered group, and the picture may become clearer as more surnames are added to this group, along with ancestral locations. The same applies to making sense of the distribution of SNPs. Present distribution is not necessarily an indication of point of origin, especially using “singletons”. With more test kits, clusters may emerge.
Brett Moore Brett Moore
June 27 @ 12:38am
I just joined this group after my Y37 test. This is a chart that David R. Moore posted back in 2015. It is a handwritten L1403 downstream. I also have A423 and the surname Moore, so can I assume that my Moore's were once O'Mordha and hence from County Laois and possibly earlier in Ulster. Our family oral history and an old Coat of Arms suggested that we were O'Mordha in Ireland originally. Strangely enough, the Moore Worldwide surname project grouped me with Moore's that came from Ireland through Scotland. Which makes sense. After eighty O'Moore chiefs alone were slaughtered by the English at the massacre at Mullaghmast. After the
Brett Moore
June 27 @ 12:39am
Sorry. Tech difficulties. Here is the rest.
Brett Moore
June 27 @ 12:40am
After the transportation of the Moore clan to Kerry, many fled to Scotland and America.