R-M222 and Subclades

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Susan  Hedeen Susan Hedeen
June 24, 2016 @ 8:41am
Good Morning M222. I would like to remind fellows of some housekeeping considerations. First, BIGY result holders. It is helpful if you share your result files. We are fortunate to have Alex Williamson working with us. Alex constructs the P312 "BIG Tree" for which R-M222 has a section. You may see it here http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=8. Secondly, those who want to order the R-M222 SNP Pack, there is a waiver to be agreed with if you have not already confirmed a positive result for the R-M222 marker. Most once predicted by haplotype as R-M222 are, and a confirmation of such may come by single SNP testing; however, if you prefer to by pass the marker confirmation, you may order the SNP Pack, but you must agree to FTDNA's waiver. Thirdly, please make certain that your account information is up to date. This includes your current email address, physical address (if you have relocated) genealogical information, and beneficiary information. Stating a firmly known MDKA (most distant known ancestor) with their dates and location is very important to this process. Any new discoveries you make with your genealogical hunts should be up-dated. Listing your ancestral surnames and their locations is recommended. If you have questions that you do not want to post to this discussion group or that of the M222 and sub-clades Yahoo group, please contact and administrator. Our addresses are listed to the left. Susan Hedeen
Susan Hedeen
October 26 @ 12:28pm
I am cross posting a message that I posted to the Yahoo group. This post was in response to a comment by a member regarding migration theory and M222. "Yes, I would agree. Like you, I do not know the etiology of your Anglicized surname, but we know that most of the Anglicized surnames have multiple origins. Additionally, that phrase, "when in Rome do as the Romans," is very pertinent to migration. Migrants moving into new territory are more likely to assimilate particularly if fitting in with the new social and cultural order eases discrimination (for lack of a better term). I think (name removed) also mentioned this in a recent post when he suggested that many that migrated into Ireland Irishified (sic) offering examples. We have had discussions regarding this before in regard to name changes. Not having NGS variant matches also could be a result of "the who chooses to test" phenomena. The last count I have for M222, for instance, only 21/22% of the project membership has engaged in NGS testing (BIGY, FGC Y Elite, WGS). While the statistics are a wee bit better for SNP testing in general, the fact of the matter is that most in all the projects are neither SNP testing or engaging in discovery for a whole variety of reasons including surname project administrators in general are not particularly supportive of discovery efforts . There are some wonderful exceptions to that generality, but my experience is that most surname project administrators have a single agenda wrapped up in their own particular line of inquiry and are unlikely to be proactive with those that they believe do not fit with their agenda; hence, many if not most in the surname projects do not belong to haplogroup projects and seriously miss out on further discovery efforts. They do not have the benefit of extra help in understanding the whys or the strategies, etc. That said, there are lots that have haplotypes only that went into testing expecting the silver bullet that did not materialize. Because of the state of testing at the time and their lack of understanding otherwise simply disengaged with genetic genealogy...unfortunate. There are also those that financially cannot afford the expense (or believe that their finances are such other priorities take precedence.) Financial reasons are a legitimate consideration when it is true (sometimes to it is excuse, mostly because on non interest...not to be incendiary, but I've seen many an example of it, so I'm jaded). Be that as it may, I'm also offering here some of Iain McDonald's SNP TMRCA assessment regarding M222. Note that the granularity of Alex W's BIG Tree is not here in these estimates for a variety of reasons including his variant consideration (his method's CombBed, if you will). Additionally, probably not all M222 BIGY (.vcfs/.bed files in the .zip format) were in the L21 BIGY file folder at the time that he did this run. For the greater part, most of his "best guess" TMRCA figures are in line with my guestimates using my little "for an idea unsophisticated method" that I developed as BIGY results began to be posted to the BIG Tree by Alex. There is not total agreement in that I generally use more variants than he does, but none the less, they are certainly within margin and close enough. NOTE; The figures for R-M222 does NOT include the phylo-equivalent block in which the variant M222 sits. This is important to understand. These figures are really simply the TMRCA of the top tier sub-clades and not the phylo-equivalent block that the variant M222 is a member of. That block is at least another two thousand years or more older' and we do NOT know where in the order of those block variants that the 'variant' R-M222 is; ie, at the top, middle, bottom or exactly where. 'There are two sets of columns. The set to the left are a direct copy paste; those to the right have been sorted in chronological order. Thank you for your remarks regarding my prior post on this matter. I agree that the questions that I pose are important questions; and I also would prefer if folks consider with seriousness the part where I mention that if some or all of the top tier subclades formed up on the continent that migration into the UK/Ireland region did not need to happen all at once. OK below are Dr. Iain McDonald's figures > Before using these figures, you should be aware of how accurate they are and why they will vary as new data is added. > http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/table.html > The table below gives a "best guess" at a convergence date, but the true date could be anywhere within the stated 95% confidence interval (and even then only with 95% certainty). > The tables below do NOT show the granularity or the detail of Alex Williamson's BIG Tree. > Note, these are TMRCA's and not ages. And the copy/paste format is getting mangled...any interested, contact me and I'll send you an exel
shane Jennings
November 28 @ 10:39pm
I'm New here. I just ordered a Big Y Test. How long does it take for the results? Will Someone help me with my results once I have them? I have already completed a Y-DNA 111 Test.
Keith Stewart
November 29 @ 3:13am
Shane, well done in ordering BIG-Y, this will be very informative for your dna genealogy/family history. Your test is in Batch 804 and are due at the end of January or more likely mid-February. Once these results come in one of the Main Administrators will look at these and also send out instructions on the best way to share your results and how to get further analysis at the BIG-Tree. THe instructions for this are at: http://www.ytree.net/Instructions.html you may want to have a look at the BIG-Tree (also called Ytree) Based on your matches you are likely to be under S7814 at A694. This is "my part" of the tree and I am the Stewart with the Scottish flag on the right of the tree. to get to this go to:- http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=580 Keith Stewart 363022 M222 Co-Administrator
Susan Hedeen
December 13 @ 8:11am
As we wind down the year 2017 and in the midst of the winter sale, the administrators would like to remind all of the availability of the Project General Fund. What is the purpose of the General Fund? The General Fund is a cost sharing tool to collect funds for testing. The availability of the General Fund within FTDNA reaches back many years. Many projects whether they be surname, geographical, clan, or haplogroup projects have availed their general funds to augment research and testing. Our haplogroup project hasn't historically used the general fund; however, we believe that it could be helpful. For individuals and groups that are interested in raising testing dollars, an Ear Mark may be decided on for collection of funds. For instance, let's say that a particular sub-clade, individual or group would like to BIGY test individuals that are derived for a particular SNP ...ie FGC4077 -- (OR any other SNP or Variant). He/She/They have identified a candidate(s) for testing, and believe cost sharing might achieve the testing goal sooner rather than later. A plea could be announced with the designated earmark. Project members may then donate any amount of money to the general fund. When enough is collected for the particular earmarked testing, then an admin may place the order for testing. The general fund is good for FTDNA customer testing only, and will not transfer over to any other company for testing. Ear Mark Example: kit id______ BIGY Fund It is important that contributing members remember that they need to EAR MARK their donation or we will not know that the donation is for a specific purpose. Any $$ donated without an earmark could be used for testing that the Admin team believes might be helpful in pursuing certain questions of their design. How to contribute to the General Fund. The easiest way to contribute is to sign into your account Go to the Activity Feed where you will find a tab on the left of the screen that is clearly marked: General Fund Donate Pay for your donation with your credit card. This link should take you to the Activity Feed Page: You will need to then sign in. https://www.familytreedna.com/social/object/1145603 With kind regards, Your volunteer administrators, PS Remember to check your accounts frequently during this sale period for coupons Pass them onto others if you will not be using them.
December 28 @ 7:22am
Susan Hedeen Attachments10:59 PM (8 hours ago) Alan, Linda, Here attached is the interview. I posted it to the Yahoo group. Linda, perhaps you or Keith could post to the activity feed of the FTDNA M222 discussion group. That is the only place that I could find to post within FTDNA. I haven't been able to get into FTDNA today beyond one time that took me 2 hours because of FT timeouts. Attachments area
1 Comment
Keith Stewart
December 28 @ 8:33am
David Wilson Interview: Y Chromosome Research Project R-M222:- by Susan Hedeen In genetic genealogy, David Wilson is one of the icons of Y-DNA R-M222 Haplogroup research. His earliest work was in identifying the STR modal pattern that is most characteristic of men whose SNP testing results are derived for the R-M222 Haplogroup. In 2004 David went about thebusiness of reviewing haplotypes in the public data bases, looking to identify the frequency of the 25/11/14 variety, and authored a report entitled “Evidence for a Distinct R1b Variety Clustered in Ireland and Scotland” dated 28 December, 2004. He speculated that this haplotype variety was marked by a SNP known as R-M222. He advocated a SNP test for the marker that was accomplished at David’s urging by Dr. James Wilson then of EthnoAncestry. The vast majority of the project’s R-M222 evidence comes from Y Chromosome- tested results of men whose genealogical ancestry lies in the UK/Ireland region. Although there also are results with ancestry not in the UK/Ireland region, there presently is insufficient testing data achieved for the Continent and other areas of Europe to clarify R-M222 heritage beyond the region except some scattered DTC testing results. David is a resident of California and granted this interview with fellow project administrator, Susan Hedeen. The Interview:- Susan: Please tell us about yourself. Are you currently working or retired? What are your other hobbies or interests outside of genealogy? David:- I’m retired since 2008. I never had a regular profession, though I once expected I might end up in Academia like my father, who was a Professor of Music at the University of California. I was a Classics Major in college, and started out as a private school Latin teacher. I then moved on to project administration in the UC system for a privately funded effort to create a machine-readable data base of all Classical Greek Literature. When I had enjoyed that gig about as much as I could, I got a job throwing newspapers every Thursday for a local weekly. This was the kind of operation that one might predict would have periodic staffing crises. When one happened right away, I told the owner that I could keyboard 80 wpm accurately, and he pulled me off the street and into the office. Within six months of fixing semi-literate press releases and writing the occasional story for an inside page, I was named the editor. I eventually gave up that title and after the regular writer moved on, I just moved into the empty spot and churned out between 5000 to 8000 words a week for nearly 10 years. When that job ended, I asked for a reference from a City Council member with whom I had become acquainted while at the newspaper. He immediately hired me to strengthen the bench in his department of a local property management and land development company. I was there for 10 years and learned more about traffic engineering, flood plain definitions, sewage and drainage capacity, the California Environmental Quality Act, restrictions on land use around commercial airports, and the care and feeding of Planning Commissioners and Council members than I ever imagined it was necessary to learn. Someday I may write a novel. I’ve done some traveling. Between careers, my wife and I fixed up an old 4x4 pick-up truck and travelled to remote places like beaches in Baja California that nobody ever went to because the roads were so bad. After retirement, I was a full-time caregiver for five years until she succumbed to Alzheimer’s Disease in 2013. Hobbies? Almost anything interests me if I stare at it for more than five minutes. Photography. Languages and linguistics. Ancient History. Computers and tech in general. I collect older guns, but not antiques. I collect musical instruments in the hopes that someday I will find the time to learn how to play them. Both my vehicles are high clearance 4x4s, so if I feel a burning need to get off the asphalt, I can. Things like that. My daughters call it boy stuff. Susan: How long have you been actively involved in genealogy, and how did you become interested in genetic genealogy? David: In their 80s, my parents began to express curiosity about their family backgrounds, which they had never systematically explored. Each knew a reasonable amount about the preceding two or three generations, but the connections before that were scattered and foggy. I joined different surname groups on the old RootsWeb lists. Some were helpful, some not. My father’s mother was a Loveless, and I found the Lovelace group to be an extremely courteous and helpful bunch, even though all the Lovelace/Loveless lines in North America were hopelessly confused. One of the more experimental researches wrote one day to say, “Hey, there’s this new company called Family Tree DNA, and they say that their tests could help sort out questions like ours.” Almost overnight there were more than a dozen test volunteers, and when the results came back it clearly showed at least three (and later four) Lovelxxx lines. With that knowledge, we could approach the historical records and straighten out some unrelated families that had lived near one another in Northern Virginia in the early 1700s. I was astonished at the power of the tool. Susan:- At what point did you decide to become involved in genetic genealogy? David:- Right then. Even though I guessed that Wilsons had to have 40 to 100 different lineages in North America, if not more, I ordered a 25 marker test just so I could be in the same game with the Lovelaces. I had no idea what I would find. Susan:- What genetic ancestry tests have you taken? David:- Just about all. I started with the 25 marker FTDNA panel, and then moved up to 111 over the years. I tested the CODIS markers (and their extension) with DNA Fingerprint in Germany (the Krahns’ original company). I also ordered from them some singleton DYS markers that were to some extent later included in FTDNA’s 111-marker panel, if I recall correctly. From FTDNA I ordered both the basic mtDNA and then later the complete mtDNA sequence. I ordered a complete Y chromosome from Full Genomes as soon as it was available. Then just to keep faith with the FTDNA customers, I ordered a Big Y from FTDNA. Last year I got a complete genome from Full Genomes, but didn’t do anything with it before everybody moved on to Build 38. At this point I’m not sure whether I want to go to the pain of converting or just order a new complete genome, either from FGC or somebody else. I had also been an early adopter of 23andMe’s offerings. Just for comparison I also ordered the Family Finder from FTDNA. They both told me about the same thing: British Isles mutt, with a lot of Scottish, Irish and English. There’s a dash of Scandinavian and Finnish, as well as a tiny little signal of East Asian. I used to think that might come from a Cherokee female among my McFarland ancestors, but I couldn’t confirm that in the records. I now think it likeliest that the signal is barely visible evidence of Saami ancestry from my deduced Finnish forebears. I may never know, but I’m happy with any of the possible explanations. Every answer is interesting Susan:- Your MDKA is listed as Alexander Wilson b. 1659 near Londonderry. Do you have a sense of his ancestry? David: - My best guess is that he was the son of immigrant Scots who came to Ireland during the Plantation of Ulster. There were a few Wilsons in Ireland before 1600, but it doesn’t look like they connect to my gang. About 1720 he and some of his family were on the first five ships out of Ireland that are now considered the start of the huge Scotch-Irish exodus to North America. I haven’t spotted a region of origin yet, but wouldn’t be surprised if they came from the Kintyre peninsula, which was a hotbed of families named Wilson in the late 1500s and early 1600s, and which had the advantage of being a short sail from Scotland to Ireland Susan:- What is your R-M222 Subclade and current SNP assignment? David:- Broadly, I’m in R-FGC4077, which is the second largest branch below R-M222 -- though it’s not very big in absolute terms. About 12-15 percent of M222 people belong to this branch. Below that I am in a really small subbranch called R-FGC12948, which was first found in my FGC test. A little later I found a match who was R-FGC12950, which comes one step closer down to the present. The Krahns found two additional reliable SNPS that they labeled A2182 and A2183. FTDNA carries these as a rung below FGC12950, but I think that is stretching the evidence. My cautious interpretation is that they are equivalent to FGC12950. I’m not sure the actual answer to that question much matters, since they are all at the tag end of that particular branch. It would be nice if someone else with one my more recent SNPs shows up. That might help us answer the question. Susan:- Were you accustomed to reading DNA research papers; and how long had you been studying YDNA when you read the Capelli Study first published on 27 May, 2003? David:- I’m a big reader of research papers. As I recall, I came late to Capelli because my own first DNA results were delivered just about the same time that paper was published. I spent a lot pf time pulling the haplotypes of my reported matches into spreadsheets and comparing them to the WAMH. That’s when it became clear to me that there was a small cluster – (only a dozen or so individuals in my first pass compared to the 2000+ we know about now) – where you could see what I first came to think of as the 25/11/14 cluster for DYS markers 390, 391 and 392. When I looked at the rest of the WAMH haplotypes, I could see tiny variations here and there but mostly it looked like what I called at the time a “genetic Kansas.” It was just rolling flatland, with very few high or low points to catch the attention of pattern analysts. Since then, I am happy to report, I have learned a great deal more about both the branches of R-M269 and Kansas. Susan:- What resonated in the Capelli Study to cause you to look for similar STR patterns in your YDNA Haplotype? David:- When I finally got to Capelli I saw in an instant that a couple of his regional markers were characteristic of the areas where the people with 25/11/14 haplotypes as well as Irish and Scottish surnames were well represented. What surprised me was that he found them up the west coast of Scotland – the Hebrides, actually – and across the top in Caithness and Orkney. In my first view, I had thought we were pretty much looking at a geographical range of Ulster and SW Scotland. No; it was larger. Susan:- You first called the R-M222 modal haplotype pattern 25/11/14. At what point did you seriously consider that the pattern had a SNP marker, deciding to pursue R-M222? David:- It took a while. Once every six months or so, a new regional study was published that included statistics on the different haplogroups found among a study population. M222 was a known SNP at that point, usually called USP9Y3636, but labs were reluctant to test it because it was thought to be associated with male infertility and they didn’t want to be accused of revealing personal health information. It was not routinely included in the first commercial SNP panels, but it was tested in some European university studies. I had noticed that there was never anybody who was M222+ in central or eastern European studies. Then there came into my hands a journal article about fertility studies among males who were positive for USP9Y3636. The two study groups came from two different large American cities. One was Boston, which made me think immediately, “Oh, Irish. Hmmm.” The other was St. Louis, which made me think, “Huh?” So I looked up the history of St. Louis and found that among its founders were members of two distinct cultures – German and Irish. Since my estimate for M222+ individuals in the world was somewhere between two and five million, it was pretty clear that infertility was not an issue. Shortly thereafter I posted my suspicions to the RootsWeb DNA List and wrote to Jim Wilson, who had my DNA in a freezer because I had tested some SNPs with his first company, Ethnoancestry, and asked him to test it for M222. He was a little reserved at first, though completely polite. I replied that if it was a matter of money, I would pay whatever cost was involved, but since this tied right into his own research into Scottish DNA, maybe he would like to make use of a sample for which a permission was already on file to explore an interesting possibility. He did, and a few weeks later I got an email telling me I was M222+. Early 2006, I think. Susan:- There were competing interests surveying similar modal haplotypes, such as those pursuing the IMH, which is not coterminous with R-M222, and was later discovered to involve multiple L21 sub-clades. Could you tell us about this period of time when there seemed to be much keen interest in these haplotypes? David:- A little after I started talking about 25/11/14 on the DNA List, I fell into an e- conversation with Patrick Guinness, whose family’s beer I very much enjoyed until it turned out I was diabetic and had to forgo most carbs. Patrick, who was I believe a sponsor of the research, let me know that Trinity College Dublin had a project going on into the ChrY genetics of the Irish, and they had seen some of the same things that I was talking about on the List. He promised that an article was in preparation, and for reasons to which I was completely sympathetic, declined to go much into the emerging conclusions from the raw data. Eventually that article was published in late 2006. Susan:- You are one of the FTDNA R-M222 Haplogroup Project Administrators, and original founder of the project? The oldest return of results for a project member is dated 3/29/2001. Those results were for STRs. When did you make the decision to found the project? David:- I absolutely can’t recall. Somebody else, whose name I cannot bring to mind, founded it first. I joined him as a co-administrator; then there was some kind of disagreement with FTDNA management, and the first administrator dropped out within weeks. That left it in my hands, which were probably not the best hands for it at the time because of my increasing concern about my wife’s health at the same time I was trying to wrap up a couple of complex development projects at work. Susan:- This year marks 10 years of project member discussions that began at RootsWeb with your first post, dated 1 June, 2007. How would you characterize discussions then and now? David:- The discussions were always smart, with the exception of comments from a couple of axe grinders and special pleaders who just didn’t get the point of the type of discussion the group was intended to host. Early talks were to some degree speculative of course, because so little was known about branching structure. Discussions now? Frankly, many of them are beyond me. I don’t have in my head the wealth of knowledge about medieval clans and families that some members do. I sense that very good evidence is being adduced in support of credible interpretations. In a world in which so many forums seem to exist only as a poster board on which people can call each other idiots, it is a pleasure to see one where actual information is exchanged and discussed. Susan:- Have you witnessed success stories in the project? David:- This is going to sound like a cop-out answer, but I think all stories are success stories. It may be that a test result won’t let someone make the connection they hoped to, but that same result also eliminates thousands of other possible connections to which the researcher no longer need give a single thought. Simplification is a major achievement. Susan:- Is there anything about R-M222 the Haplogroup that you find surprising? David:- I don’t know that I find this surprising, but it is certainly interesting that there are still differing opinions about where the M222 founder was born and where the haplogroup first began to spread. Susan:- What do you think the future holds for R-M222 research? David:- I think the numerous SNPs that are M222-equivalent below Z2961 represent a great opportunity for additional understanding of the evolution of R-M222. If there are surviving lineages that branched from that cluster between 4000 and 2000 years ago (round numbers only, I’m not trying to be precise), they will be represented by very small populations, and we should not expect to find many of them until hundreds of thousands of more Irish and Scots, or members of the Irish and Scottish diaspora, have been tested. At the more recent end, I think we have identified just about all important sub-branches of M222 down to around a thousand years ago. From here on the game is going to involve filling in the ever more refined branching structure between then and the present. Most of this work will happen in the R-DF105 branch simply because it is so huge. From a parochial point of view, I wouldn’t mind if a little more branching could be found in the FGC12948 branch Susan:- What advice do you have for R-M222 researchers (both professional and hobby)? David: I’m not much for advice, but I am a big believer in a free market in research. Anybody who has a new idea about a research angle should pursue it. Good ideas will flourish. The less good will fall by the wayside. I want to offer in closing a tip of the hat to the much-missed John McLaughlin, who for some years ran the RootsWeb M222 List with precious little help from me. It is a tragedy that he died just as a major understanding of the substructure of R-M222 was about to break. We all owe him major thanks for his work. I also want to say that doing this interview has felt a little uncomfortable because it focuses on me to the exclusion of a number of other early researchers who made contributions to M222 research. I very much appreciate the conversations with Jim Wilson and Patrick Guinness. Patrick made a report to the Irish Genealogical Association a couple of years ago that dealt with the same matters discussed here. The talk was on YouTube for about 24 hours before it was taken down. I managed to catch it while it was up, and I haven’t checked in months to see if it ever returned. It’s worth watching if it is there. Finally, I want to offer another hat tip to Gareth Henson, who often in the early days of DNA research guided me away from foolish notions and made me think a little more clearly about subjects that were not quite as simple as I took them to be. It is hard to remember now, but I think it was Gareth who sent me the USP9Y3636 article that crystallized my thinking about the relationship between the 25/11/14 haplotype and the M222 SNP. If that’s true, there’s a really good chance I big-footed Gareth by running my mouth on the DNA List before he had a chance to make a more thoughtful announcement of the same conclusion. Gareth, if I offended you in any way, I apologize. Interview End:- Thank you very much David for your leadership, initiative, observations, and willingness to voluntarily serve the R-M222 and Subclades research, project and genetic genealogy community. Susan Hedeen
Garth Graham
December 28 @ 12:08pm
Jeffrey Lane
December 29 @ 9:30am
Great job Susan. This interview needs it's own spot in the website here - not just in the activity feed. I wish FTDNA would allow for more flexibility on these group websites.
Susan Hedeen
January 18 @ 6:58am
I agree.
Keith Stewart Keith Stewart
February 7 @ 4:08am
Excellent that we have now have 2100 members. Keep up the good work by ensuring even your lower str matches are in the project. They may not be aware that they are M222, you could be the person that could unlock that for them. Also if you have tested with BIG-Y and have just tested or have just had your results upgraded (note everyone who has previously tested will have had their results upgraded to Hg38 Build) --- Can you sent your results /upgraded results to the BIG-Tree DNA Warehouse. Simple instructions at:- http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/instructions.html This is important as we will get a more accurate Map of the M222 snps and also a more accurate date for these. I am also glad to report that the FTDNA Problems of results not loading have been resolved and you should now see your matches. Also again please check these and ensure all your matches are on your part of the BIG-Tree. If not please contact them with the upload instructions link http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/instructions.html Keith Stewart ps you can see the current dates for the Main M222 snps and how they a line to European Anthropology and History at Dr Iain McDonalds website:- http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/tree.html
Garth Graham
February 7 @ 7:53am
Just got my uncle's Big Y results last night. FTDNA is not showing his correct terminal snp just yet. Not sure why but they are still showing him as A1742 yet it shows him being positive for BY13069 which is one step further down (my current terminal snp). However he and I should draw one new snp on the tree below BY13069 as we both share a couple of unnamed novel variants in our results. Should I bring this to the attention of I believe it's Michael Sager at FTDNA? Or will they automatically see this? If you want to look at his kit and mine the kit number's are: mine - B122909 and Michael Graham - 586759. FTDNA lists for both of us having in the unnamed variants section to share 2 unnamed variants. They are 12804587 and 20083013. 12804587 is actually named, because I had the primers done for it at yseq last year when I did my Big Y. It is called A12547 and you can see it here at ybrowse: http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=chrY;start=12804587;end=12804587;name=A12547;class=Sequence;feature_id=194862;db_id=chrY%3Adatabase and it is listed in my novel snp's at yfull as well. I uploaded my uncle's file to the yDNA data warehouse last night as well.
7 Recent New Members
11 hours ago
7 new members have joined this project!
James Mowry Peter Neill Don Cluxton Ronald Graham Brandon Malone Brant Smith Michael Murray
Keith  Stewart Keith Stewart
Yesterday at 2:43pm
The Irish DNA Atlas Project was presented today at the Back to our PAst meeting in the Titanic Centre Belfast by Ed Gilbert while the video of this talk will be posted later on Youtube -- -- you can hear this talk NOW as it was previewed at The Genealogical Society see:- http://familyhistory.ie/wp/lectures-3/
Mark Monroe
Yesterday at 8:13pm
Thanks Keith!
Frank Dyke Frank Dyke has a question!
February 14 @ 8:33pm
Should I buy the y111 upgrade or the M222 snp pack first? When I get the y111 upgrade will it make my snp a subclade of M222? I imagine that I should get the snp pack for that new subclade before I buy the M222 snp pack on my y67 status.
Keith Stewart
February 15 @ 3:15am
Frank to get to and snp subclade of M222 you would need to test with the M222 Snp Pack. This covers all the main M222 subclades nomatter to what level of str you have teasted. You might have hints of this in your Y67 as to what your nearest markers are. However the problem of M222 is that convergence ie everyone looks the same means that you really need to either test with M222 snp pack test so you can see which main M222 subdivision you are in. The other option which is expensive is the BIG-Y test. If you were considering BIG-Y this it would be best to wait for a ftdna sale.
Frank Dyke
February 15 @ 7:28pm
Thanks for the answer Keith. I really need to set aside some money for the M222 pack. I’m hoping the subclade I get will correspond with some northern Irish clan or tribe. I always wondered how and when my paternal ancestors got to Cumberland. There are records of my ancestors during the Norman Conquest as a native Anglo-Saxon family who retained their noble status unlike other Saxon families after the conquest. I wonder how long they were living there in the northern part of Cumberland and how long they had been English speakers. I heard speculations of the Dykes being scions of the Scottish Dunbar clan but my earliest ancestors are English speakers, not Gaelic. Perhaps in the early Middle Ages my ancestors were Scotti fishers/raiders who were attracted to the Roman commerce of the region around Hadrian’s Wall. It’s fun to imagine but only speculation.
Keith Stewart
February 16 @ 2:46am
Your matches seem to be indicating something under S588 see:- http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=576 But you would have to take a M222 SNP pack test to confirm this and to see what main SNP you are positive under this.
10 Recent New Members
February 12 @ 1:51pm
10 new members have joined this project!
Kevin  Newell Johnnie Richards Sam Bryan William Hanna Bronson Bryant Michael Cummens Ira Bryant Chad Wallish Kevin Canavan William Stewart
James Carroll James Carroll has a question!
February 5 @ 9:24pm
Anyone know what the hold up is with processing Big Y results. My brother's kit is 358888. It was ordered on 6 August and has been postponed yet again. Is it normal to have to wait over 6 months?
Keith Stewart
February 6 @ 12:35am
James that is very unusual for someone to wait for a BIG-Y result for that time. I will contact FTDNA to see what the problem is and will Email you directly. Keith Stewart (Volunteer M222 Administrator)
James Carroll
February 10 @ 3:14am
Any word on this yet? Thanks.
Keith Stewart
February 10 @ 4:20am
No word back yet but I will certainly be pressing FTDNA for an answer to your Question as to why you BIG-Y test has been delayed
James Carroll
February 11 @ 4:52am
Thank you Keith. Much appreciated.
Lawrence (Larry) Murray Lawrence (Larry) Murray
February 7 @ 3:52pm
Possible Explanation For R-M222 In the Scottish Lowlands Roderic Ó Flaherty's H-Iar Connaught, originally published in 1684 A.D. and later translated to English and edited in 1846 A.D., has two interesting references of the Connacht Irish in reference to Scotland. The first is about a military expedition in 1244 A.D. wherein King Henry III of England commanded his Irish liege men to join the Lord Justice of Ireland in Scotland. The Connacht auxiliaries under the command of Felim Ó Conor did so and King Henry's forces had a successful campaign in Wales. Here is one incident where a large number of Connacht Irishmen may have found an opportunity for mass migration to Scotland in the medieval time frame. The second reference is in a footnote that says in 1256 A.D. the son of Somairle (Sorly) Mac Donnell sailed with a fleet from the Hebrides, to Connmaice-mara (Connemara) in Iar-Connaught (West Connacht), where he captured a merchant ship, and plundered its cargo of wine, copper, and iron. Jordan de Exeter, sheriff of Connaught, pursued him to a neighbouring island, where his ships were at anchor. An engagement took place in which the sheriff and one of his knights were slain; and Mac Sorly returned home in triumph with his booty. This raid appears to have been against the Cambro-Normans who had previously seized the city of Galway and surrounding areas from the rightful possession of the native Connacht Uí Briúin Irishmen. So the raid would not have distressed the Irishmen one bit. From this Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domhnall_mac_Raghnaill there appears to be quite more significant interaction between the MacDonalds and the Connacht Irish. There is mention of a praise poem from a 17th century manuscript written by Niall MacMhuirich addressed to one Domhnall mac Raghnaill, Rosg Mall (Domhnall mac Raghnaill, of the Stately Gaze): Descendant of Gofraidh, descendant of Amhlaibh Fionn, his Gall stewards from sea to sea; following the Gall are stout youths; of the progeny of Brian and Colla and Conn. It is asserted this Domhnall mac Raghnaill, Rosg Mall is the Domhnall, progenitor of Clan Donald. Of special interest is that this man is clearly identified as a Gall-Ghaeil, that is a foreigner or Norse Gael. This is exactly what Clan Donald Y-DNA tests have proven over the last decade or so. Next, this poem also asserts descendants of Brian, Colla, and Conn follow this man. Whether the Brian mentioned is a conflation of Brión, progenitor of the Uí Briúin and also a decendant of Conn, or whether it refers to Brian Bóruma is not clear from this verse. Regardless, it would indicate that many different branches of Irish lineages followed this man. Given that Galloway (derived from the Scottish Gaelic Gall-Ghàidhealaibh - foreigner or Norse Gael) and other parts of the Scottish Lowlands were under control of the MacDonalds at one time, this poem could be relating a bit of history that explains why so much Connacht or Northwest Irish Y-DNA has been found in men from the Scottish Lowlands. There is the further connection to Domhnall mac Raghnaill concerning his possible death, from the same Wikipedia article: In 1247 A.D. Maurice fitz Gerald, Justiciar of Ireland, invaded the territory of Maol Seachlainn Ó Domhnaill, King of Tír Chonaill, defeating and killing this Irish king at the Battle of Ballyshannon. According to the Annals of Loch Cé, one of Maoilsheachlainn's allies who died at Ballyshannon was a Mac Somhairle, a "Descendant of Somhairle": Mac Somhairle, king of Argyll, and the nobles of the Cenel-Conaill besides, were slain. The Irish historian Seán Duffy suggested that this "Mac Somhairle" was Domhnall mac Raghnall. Duffy's main argument is that the 18th-century Book of Clanranald relayed a tradition that Domhnall had been invited by the Irish at Tara to come "to take the headship of the Western Isles and the greater part of the Gaels". R. Andrew McDonald believed that this "Mac Somhairle" referred to Donnchadh mac Dubhghaill, while David Sellar thought that the clear favourite for this "Mac Somhairle" should be Domhnall's older brother Ruaidhrí. Alex Woolf more recently offered an extended case for the latter view, arguing on a number of grounds that Ruaidhrí is by far the best candidate. Regardless, there is a strong and clear historical connection between the MacDonalds and the Connacht province of Ireland which could help explain the observation of so many R-M222+ men appearing to have Scottish Lowlands antecedents, yet having clear genetic ties to the Connacht, Ireland.
Jeffrey Lane
February 8 @ 12:36pm
Interesting read. However, the impact of The Plantations on these areas cannot be ignored by researchers. Estimates of death/loss of the population resulting from the Cromwellian conquests are at 40%. It might be good to have a DNA study done on Irish Catholics vs. Irish Protestants to settle some of it. But as most of the Scots and English that settled in Ireland were Protestant, it should mean that we already know the answer: The reason that Irish R-M222+ men have Scottish lowland (South) antecendents is because that is where they came from in the 1600s.
Robert Barry Robert Barry
February 3 @ 5:42pm
This is Judy, Robert's sister. His kit# 678448. R-FGC8739, R-DF97. I am a newbie to genetic genealogy and embarked on this as a way of discovering just where our Barry line came from. The paper trail only goes back to 1800 Kentucky at this point. We were surprised to learn we had no real genetic connection to the Barrys in the surname project and the closest matches at Y-111 were to Boyle and Rafferty, who also matched on the Big Y results. The other matches on Big Y are to Dohertys and McGees. I am confused by all the technical language at this point but I am reading a lot and watching YouTube videos hoping to catch up. We have downloaded results to the Y DNA Warehouse and I have been looking at where he is located so far. I gather that the family line was most likely from north west Ireland but can anyone give me a little more information or recommend reading material in layman's terms?
Mark Monroe
February 3 @ 7:34pm
Judy (Robert's sister), Genetically, I am also from NW Ireland. For generations, we were also told we were Scotish. So now I focus my genetic research in Ireland. With that said, I have joined the following projects closely associated with NW Ireland and surrounding areas. By doing this, I have found other close matches. R _R1b ALL Subclades R-M222 and Subclades Ireland yDNA R L21, Z290 and Subclades Irish Mapping Carroll Ford Ancient Breifne Clans (Ireland) R-L21WTY Celtic Traveller Munster Pre-Great Famine Ball Molloy Prosser O'Rourke Scottish Y-DNA Project Scots-Irish Moody Surname Project New York State DNA Cork Ireland DonegalBay&Fermanagh Lennox, MacFarlane, Leckie - cadet clans of Lennox Munster Irish RILEY I learned that one should not depend on just surname matches because they were not necessarily locked in until about 200 - 300 years ago for most people. Non-Paternal Events (NPE) had surnames change due to career trades, clan associations, or simply changing names to avoid capture by the king's men. I hope this helps.
Keith Stewart
February 4 @ 10:36am
You very closest match is a Scottish Grant see the BIG tree http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=592&star=false Would be interesting to see your close Boyle Match on the BIG-Tree and also in the M222 project. I think there may also be another Grant your match list who is not on BIG-Y . You might want to contact him to see if he would join M222 and post his results on the BIG-Tree. Just as a general note because of the sheer volume of new BIG-Y results we are constantly coming across people who have undertaken BIG-Y but have not posted there result on the BIG-Tree. Can I ask everyone to check their BIG-Y match results to see if there are any names that are not on your "own" part of the BIG-Tree and encourage them to post there results to the BIG-Tree. http://www.ytree.net/Instructions.html and also to join our M222 group. By doing this we can really make a difference to our knowledge about the M222 subtypes and the name family associations of these. I will try and post go references sources and learning resources for DNA genealogy.
Mark Monroe
February 7 @ 4:51pm
I might also add that I join as many relevant groups, not only for genetic genealogy reasons but for learning history of the area and times. I find it really educational and I see where a lot of migration has occurred between Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and to a lesser degree, England and the Nordic areas.
Vincent O'Rourke Vincent O'Rourke
February 7 @ 1:14pm
Yesterday I was rather disappointed when I logged into FTDNA to find my BigY results had been delayed until the end of February beginning of March. I logged in today to find BigY results complete. I have uploaded the VCF file to DNA Warehouse. My terminal SNP has not changed, it remains at R-A260, is it likely to change? one of the matches was Mark Monroe. I'll have to do some reading unless Mark could enlighten me as to how near a match it is. Kit no 544909
Mark Monroe
February 7 @ 4:46pm
Vincent, please refer to my response to your post in Ireland YDNA. Hope it helps. Let me know if you have any further questions.
Daniel Hawley Daniel Hawley
February 7 @ 3:20pm
The kit (806846) of Daniel Hawley [earliest known ancestor, Andrew Hawley b. c. 1800 Ireland; d. c. 1870 WV USA] is being managed temporarily by myself, Luther Winters. Andrew is my maternal 2nd-g-grandfather. Andrew is projected to be Hg R-M269 by Y-111 and will be proven when his Big-Y results are in. Traditional genealogy has failed to prove Andrew's surname, his birthplace, his route to the US or his parentage. I am looking forward to help from this project to fill in some of these blank. Any input is welcomed. Thanks for the invite.
Mark Monroe
February 7 @ 4:43pm
Watch what surnames appear as matches. Those that do appear as DNA matches yet do not match the surname Hawley can be expected as surnames were dynamic and changed regularly up until a couple of hundred years ago. I hope this article helps explain: This is an interesting read for those researching by surnames and trying to break through a brick wall. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/familyhistory/get_started/surnames_01.shtml
12 Recent New Members
February 7 @ 2:04pm
12 new members have joined this project!
Robert Sutherland Charles Gattis Tim Phelps John Robertson Jean-Pierre Desgagne Don Clugston Michael Nichols Geoffrey Jameson Stephen Moore Keith Skinner Daniel Hawley Robert Scott