I-M223 Y-DNA Haplogroup

ISOGG Y-DNA Haplogroup I2a1b1 (was I2a2a & earlier I2b1)
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Stephen DOBSON Stephen DOBSON has a question!
June 3 @ 4:31pm
I'm just having a look at my brother Stephen's Y37 test results. He has 6 matches (1x2, 3x3 and 2x4 genetic distance) All matches have the surname Brown. All are the I-M223 Haplogroup except the man who did the Big Y test, his Haplogroup is I-Y144711. As our father was "adopted" by our grandmothers husband he was never told who his biological father was. From these results can I presume his father had the surname Brown? Thanks for any help you can give me. Sue
Sue Tarrant
15 hours ago
Thanks Wade I thought that must be it. And is there a way I can see my matches and what their #'s are so I can see who you have all been talking about?
Tom Krzempek
13 hours ago
Sue, in a panel of 37 STR markers, Stephen has six matches. I present you a list of their kit numbers (#) according to GD: #N40453 - GD 2 #142768 - GD 3 #64963 - GD 3 #unknown - GD 3 #MK57252 - GD 4 tested Big Y (I-Y144711) #B449881 - GD 4 You can see them in charts of our project or the Brown project. I could only check public data, so I don't know the Thomas kit number. Cobb #79814 is only displayed in the matches of William (I-Y144711) and Francis (I-PH3477). I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Sue Tarrant
11 hours ago
Tom after taking note of your comment yesterday - thanks for that - and really looking at Stephens matches against the information you have provided, I am understanding that none of Stephens 6 matches from his Y37 test really mean anything in our tracing our dads father? Although these are all Browns they are not close to Stephens Y DNA so really are we even looking for a Brown because none match with Stephen closely enough?
Tom Krzempek
5 hours ago
Sue, at the current stage of research, I can say that you belong to the Brown family, but I can not indicate which line it is. We do not have enough data, which is why the test of STR James markers will be so important, especially since James is displayed in your family relationships (FF) as: 5th Cousin - Remote Cousin. All matches displayed in panel 37 STR are very important to trace the paternal line. Unfortunately, these people are not displayed in the FF panel. Only William Thomas, who has GD = 2, has not tested FF. Also, not all people who tested Y-DNA have joined our project, which makes analysis difficult. I noticed one interesting man Neil MacGregor Brown (3rd Cousin - 5th Cousin) who is displayed in your FF, but not in the Stephen FF. He only tested FF, but no STR markers. He is shown to be from your father's side. Maybe you would ask him if he would test the STR markers. In addition, it's worth doing "Link Matches" in the family tree of the Stephen because more Browns are displayed in his FF. This should indicate who of them came from the paternal side and tested FF but without testing for STR markers. Sue, you have tested only 37 STR markers and this is the minimum level to compare related people. In your case, all the people below I-Y144711 have the very unique first 12 STR markers, so we can find related members. STR markers are subject to constant mutations. By analyzing subsequent STR markers, we can extract individual branches and family lines. The more STR markers tested, the more accurate our analysis can be. A more reliable method of matching people is to test SNP markers that are stable and passed from father to son. Currently in the Brown family only one member has tested Big Y and he has 36 new mutations (SNPs). Each SNP is a node from which individual subbranches and family lines diverge, which is why we see that a branch of people such as: Scallan, Francis, Johnson separated from the trunk I-Y144711 and was marked with the SNP marker PH3477. This SNP is not present on the Brown line. By comparing STR and SNP markers, we can match people who have tested Y-DNA and who do not have family documents, with high probability. People looking for their family should first of all consider the Big Y test, because it checks the SNP markers discovered so far matching them to a specific group, subgroup, branch or line, detects new mutations (SNP) that describe a specific paternal line, and detects mutations of STR markers on all levels.
N. Austin Gray N. Austin Gray
17 hours ago
I haven't posted in a while, so greetings to my friends in our I-M223 Group. I have a question regarding the new TMRCA chart (developed by Dr. Iain McDonald) sent to me via email by one of FTDNA's Big Y Specialists with whom I talked today. I understand FTDNA is no longer using the old TiP Calculator to determine TMRCA based on GD / Differences in STR markers. Instead, this new chart shows that two Y 111 matches who have a GD of 2 would see an estimated TMRCA as 30 - 330 ybp. For me and my 1C,1R, Jim Gray, we have a GD of 2. We know for a fact the real time to my cousin's (Jim Gray's) and my MRCA is 155 ybp, if you base it on the year my g. grandfather died (1944). Based on the year he was born (1865), the time to our MRCA would be only 76 years. The span of my g. grandfather's life was closer to the most recent estimate (30 ybp) than to the farthest back in time (330 ybp). So my question pertains to the column on the far right - Big Y 700. All five Grays who match at SNP I-A18711 also match at the STR 111 marker level. So, when I look at FTDNA's Block Tree, I notice FTDNA has finally split our branch into two, with my cousin and I being at I-Y99610 with an average of 1 Private Variant. The three Grays who had previously matched us at Haplogroup I-A18711 have not changed. They show an average of 3 Private Variants. I was told by FTDNA's Big Y Specialist to add both branches' variants to determine where to find the TMRCA, based on SNPs, on the chart. That would be 1 + 3 = 4 total Private Variants. I was told next to look across from 4, under Genetic Distance on the chart, and then look under that last column, Big Y-700. The TMRCA "window" is 150 - 900 ybp. YFull's Age Estimation for we five Grays who upgraded to Big Y 700 is 275 ybp (age by all samples), or 125 - 475 "window of estimate". That is a BIG difference. I would appreciate anyone's comments. Please refer to my post showing the I-A18711/ I-Y99610 (Gray branch) of the Block Tree which I made at the same time as this one.
Wade Kotter
14 hours ago
Without knowing in detail the data and the methodology FTDNA is using to calculate these TMRCA estimations I don't think I can comment much on this. It would certainly be nice for FTDNA to publish a white paper or other description of their methodology. Both FTDNA and YFull say that they're using a 95% confidence interval, but the difference in the "margin of error" suggests to me that FTDNA is using a different mutation rate than YFull and a different way of counting variants. In looking at many different YFull age estimations and comparing them to their list of SNPs, they almost always use only some of the novel SNPs with an occasional known SNP added in. My impression from reading your description and looking at the chart is that FTDNA is not as selective in the private variants they use. But this is all speculation. I'll be interested to see what other people say about this.
N. Austin Gray
14 hours ago
Thanks Wade!
N. Austin Gray N. Austin Gray
17 hours ago
Please refer to this screenshot of the "Gray branch" of the Block Tree when reading my previous post which should appear above this post. It includes the new chart FTNDA is now using for TMRCA (the TiP Calculator is no longer used). Thanks to Wade Kotter for already providing his insightful comment.
Tom Krzempek Tom Krzempek
20 hours ago
The Genographic Project will soon cease operations. Short information here: "We are writing to let Genographic Project registrants know that, after fifteen years of research, the public participation phase of this research project will end on June 30, 2020. After that time, National Geographic’s Geno website will be discontinued and “Geno” DNA Ancestry Kit results will no longer be available on the website or otherwise." There is still some time to transfer data to FTDNA. Our project has already been joined by people who submitted their data to FTDNA, but unfortunately their results are not visible, because it is necessary to purchase a test of STR markers. Below you can see a list of people grouped according to the description of our project. Wayne tried to inform about it several times, but we still have 29 members whose data are invisible and at the same time many people do not see these ties in their matches. If anyone knows these people or their families and has contact with them, please explain this situation to them. Basics: #N241598 H. Mueller I-S20825 Unknown I-CTS616: #N129414 W. Bennett I-CTS616 #N158081 P. Lannes I-CTS616 Roots: #B89890 G. Ponton I-Z2068 #N118725 L. Hansen I-Y4760 #N122622 S. Bayliss I-Z2058 #N232038 R. Johnson I-L812 Isles: #N114465 R. McCullough I-L126 #N131201 K. McCormack I-L126 #N235553 G. Sedano I-L126 #N263289 D. Jack I-F2696 Cont3: #368569 L. Ross I-Y11261 #N190933 M. Pedrina I-A427 #N195690 L. Olsen I-S25733 #N250567 D. Yazlle I-Y5670 Cont 2c: #N134953 S. Cifuentes I-L623 Cont 2d: #N161708 S. BERGER I-Y6641 Cont 2b: #N257448 J. Brown I-CTS1977 Cont 2a: #B12312 B. Crockett I-CTS6433 #N117847 D. Slebos I-CTS6433 #N126045 P. Morreale I-CTS6433 #N158770 J. Tassone I-Y4764 #N234259 M. Rehm I-CTS6433 #N236954 J. Sporrek I-S8105 Cont1: #N130367 M. Jones I-Z166 # N266852 G. Pollock I-Y7272 non I-M223: #174037 M. Gleeson R-Z255 #N114411 R. Korstad I-M253 #N131350 T. Gago I-PF4088 Soon we will celebrate Father's Day (June 21), so maybe FTDNA will prepare a new discount sale. It would be great if our members could consider this option.
Wade Kotter
17 hours ago
For those who did the Nat Geno 2.0 test prior to November 2016 but have not transferred your results to FTDNA, you can go here to initiate the transfer. https://www.familytreedna.com/nat-geo-transfer Beginning in Nov 2016 National Genographic switched to Helix branded kits and FTDNA does not accept data from those kits.
Wayne Rodney Roberts Wayne Rodney Roberts
June 2 @ 5:58pm
Congratulations to our Hemphill clan with new Big Y-700 results for Johnston Hemphill. With his three identified Novel SNP locations he adds a new un-named sub-branch to I-Y8602. It is great when we see large surname clans identify the SNP connections between different families especially when historical and family records are unable to establish the links.
1 Comment
Wayne Rodney Roberts
June 3 @ 5:23pm
Yes, thank-you Wade, I have corrected the mistake.
William Hemphill
Yesterday at 10:14am
Thank you Wayne and Wade! Since this is a match to Hemphills who moved from Castlederg, NI to Australia in about 1850, you can imagine we have been hard at work looking for the connection. Johnston not only is a Y match, but an autosomal match to Bill and three of our four children. There are also some interesting questions regarding the Hillis results and their new subgroup. Since FTDNA is no longer allowing the testing of single SNPs, I have been in touch with YSEQ regarding ordering the primers for that SNP. Thomas had me ask FTDNA to verify BY47538 as it had previously been found in A. FTDNA responded it had been found in AO as well. Hope everyone is doing well. Pat
Wade Kotter
Yesterday at 10:26am
Pat, which SNP are you requesting that YSEQ develop primers for? I haven't been following developments in the Hillis results. Ok, looking at the Hillis group on the results chart I see that you are probably talking about BY47538. So I looked that SNP up at YBrowse and it shows that primers have already been developed for BY47538 and, looking at YSEQ's SNP catalog, BY47538 is already available for testing: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=137492&osCsid=fad231331024a8bc6a0e1d1a6e9be729
William Hemphill
Yesterday at 11:52am
Thanks Wade.
Wade Kotter Wade Kotter
June 3 @ 11:16am
YFull posted v8.05.01 (dated 03 June 2020) of their tree while I slept. I see the following new branches on the I-M223 section of the tree: https://yfull.com/tree/I-S25733/ (downstream of I-P78) https://yfull.com/tree/I-FT4915/ (downstream of I-Y40290) https://yfull.com/tree/I-BY27818/ (downstream of I-Y111149) https://yfull.com/tree/I-BY92644/ (downstream of I-BY70194) https://yfull.com/tree/I-BY54878/ (downstream of I-Y140584) https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y4719/ (downstream of I-Y4714) Keep those new Big Y-700 results coming! Note: Be sure you reload the tree page in order to see the latest version.
Wade Kotter
June 4 @ 9:55am
The YFull tree is now showing as v8.06.00, dated 04 June 2020. I see no new branches beyond those listed above. Again, make sure you reload the tree page in order to see the latest version.
Matthew Kelley Matthew Kelley
June 3 @ 5:49pm
YFull did not use the two new snps that Michael O'Driscoll was negative for FT16184 and FT16477. I will now write YFull to ask why, but recently someone had an snp in the same region and was told by someone familiar with the region that it is in an area linked with the x chromosome so could not be verified by single snp testing. That answer was not given with reference to our snps, but that is likely the answer I will get.
Joshua Chisim Joshua Chisim
June 2 @ 6:48am
I've just sent my BAM file to YFull. Had originally sent the VCF, not sure if there's going to be much difference, if any but thought it would be useful to get everything finalised.
1 Comment
Wade Kotter
June 2 @ 11:07am
From the YFull home page: "The data extracted from the .VCF file is incomplete. ~ 50-70% of data that can be taken from the .BAM file." If you want the most complete analysis possible then sending the BAM file is the way to go. I must, however, point out that YFull does now provide age estimations based on the data from VCF files; in fact, Joshua has an age estimation that is included in the age estimation for the I-Y181758 branch as you can see by clicking on the Info tab for that branch: https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y181758/ Joshua, I think it's possible, perhaps even likely, that your novel SNPs and age estimation will change when they finish the analysis of your BAM file. Mine did when I upgraded from a VCF file to BAM file for my Big Y-500 results back in 2018. However, it is almost certain that your position of the YFull tree will not change from I-Y181758* as a result of submitting your BAM file. The analysis of your VCF file makes it quite clear that you do not belong to the one known branch downstream of I-Y181758 and the only way for your downstream branch to be established is for someone else to test who matches you on one or more of you best or acceptable novel SNPs.
Joshua Chisim
June 2 @ 1:29pm
Thanks for the replies. I didn't anticipate any movement as I know it requires another match. Would be interesting to see if a change in age estimation.
Matthew Kelley
June 2 @ 6:27pm
YFull did not use vcf file tests originally for age estimation so my statement about my own results is correct. However, I am sure Wade is correct that YFull does use vcf files now. I believe YFull started using vcf's in age estimation once they learned that FTDNA was going to charge for new BigY tester BAM files (they used to be included in the past higher prices for BigY). I am only assuming, but with the additional snps that may be found via BAM file review vs vcf review, there should still be a good possibility that the age estimation will change once upgraded from vcf to BAM analysis.
Wade Kotter
June 2 @ 11:45pm
Yes, you are correct that back in 2018 they did not provide age estimations based on analysis of VCF files but your statement could have been interpreted to suggest that they are still not doing so. That's why I pointed out that they are doing it now but I could have worded it better. I apologize and have edited the original post accordingly.The difference is that when both of us submitted our VCF files for free analysis they specifically said that they were investigating how to extract more information from VCF files through comparing them to BAM files from the same test. This took place during the time FTDNA stopped providing BAM files for Big Y-500 new tests or free legacy upgrades. I suspect this is the time frame when they began to develop a methodology to provide age estimations they felt comfortable with and other information from analysis of VCF files.
Wade Kotter Wade Kotter
May 28 @ 9:22am
Wayne, here's the YBrowse details page for M379. The count_derived is 2, so it looks to me like Thomas Krahn knows of at least 2 samples that tested positive for M379. I think it's definitely worth contacting him.
Wayne Rodney Roberts
June 1 @ 8:30pm
Yes, YF71156 is administered by the tester's daughter. She is quite interested in the results. It looks as if her father was tested by YSEQ judging by the many Novel SNPs with the name prefix "A". I am at present comparing STR markers, at least the first 111 markers.
Wayne Rodney Roberts
June 1 @ 8:49pm
I think it is also interesting that FTDNA used HDGP00127 to form the branch on the Haplotree with Davis. I haven't heard of them using external samples before.
Wade Kotter
June 1 @ 9:30pm
Yes, that's very interesting regarding the way the branch at FTDNA was formed. Looking at the statistics for YF71156, YFull shows a coverage of 99.77%, so it's pretty obviously a result of whole genome sequencing. On the other hand, it shows only 1,921,868 reads, whereas my Big Y-700 BAM, with 77.85% coverage, shows 6,976,493 reads. Also, it shows a mean depth coverage for the YF71156 sample of only 10.8X while the mean depth coverage for my Big Y-700 was 42.58X. So the YF77156 sample has greater length of coverage but a significantly lower number of reads and much less depth of coverage. I also find it fascinating that although YF71156 has a total of 36 best and acceptable novel SNPs, only 16.67 of them met the criteria for use in the age estimation for this sample. I also see that YF71156 has 10 "private" known SNPs on its "Hg and SNPs" list, the most I've seen for a YFull sample. I'll be even more fascinated to see what happens when the analysis of HGDP00127 is completed. I don't see any SNPs on YF71156's "Hg and SNPs" list shown as New or any SNPs on it's "Novel SNPs" display listed as "Shared." This could change, of course, as the analysis of HDGP00127 proceeds.
Wade Kotter
June 1 @ 10:13pm
Regarding STRs, I see that YFull's calls for 6 of the makers in the Y111 panel are low confidence and that they could not make a call for 12 of the remaining markers. I hope this doesn't prove too problematic for your STR marker comparison.
Yaniv Mendelson Yaniv Mendelson
June 1 @ 3:40am
Hi i have a question regarding the Block Tree. 1) what are those numbers on Y axis ? 2) what is the formula for aging / time calculation ?
Wade Kotter
June 1 @ 9:52am
1. According to FTDNA's learning center. "The ruler/counter on the left of the Block Tree allows you to judge how many SNPs are in a block." Here's their full information page on the block tree: https://learn.familytreedna.com/y-dna-testing/big-y/big-y-block-tree/ 2. There is currently no formula for age estimations based on the information provided on the Block Tree. FTDNA has indicated that at some future time they will be providing age estimations, but at the current time the only company that provides age estimations is YFull.
Yaniv Mendelson
June 1 @ 4:05pm
Thank you Wade