P109+ DYS-455=9

  • 48 members

About us

This project is dedicated to a small subset of P109 Haplogroup individuals who have the STR mutation DYS-455=9.  This group is further split by YCAIIb.  The EDMUNDSON-GRANT-HARPER-NEWSOM-THORNTON group is YCAIIb=20, while others are YCAIIb=21.  This is a geographic project; the goal is to see if we can use this unique signature to locate the origin of this clan within Europe.

  The current P109 SNP Y-tree of the Y-chromosome is shown below:

à P109

            à Y15520 (and 8 other SNPs)

            à Y5621, Y5617

            à S10891

            à Y3664

            à S7660 (and 4 other SNPs)

            à PF5371 (and 10 other SNPs)

            à S14887

            à Y20844 (and 2 other SNPs)

            à Y11203

            à Y4115

            à Y4734 (and 7 other SNPs)

            à FGC14508/Y3663

               à Y7655 (and 3 other SNPs)

à FGC14500 Bottleneck (14 SNPs):

FGC14500/Y6208

FGC14514/Y6205

FGC14512/Y6206

FGC23553/Y6207

FGC14517/Y6211

FGC14501

FGC14513/Y6209

FGC14516/Y6210

FGC14506/Y6212

FGC23552/Y7092

FGC23554/Y6204

FGC14502

FGC14504

FGC22101

            à DYS455=9

            à YCAIIb=20

            à          EDMUNDSON

GRANT

HARPER

NEWSOM

THORNTON





In an effort to further parse the I1d1 Haplogroup a member of the THORNTON project (Kit #159230) applied to the “Walk the Y” (WTY) program.  The WTY program is a project administered by Family Tree DNA wherein representative Y-chromosomes are subjected to extensive nucleotide sequencing in an effort to identify new SNPs (and is so doing create new branches off the above tree).  The results of this were disappointing – no new SNPs were identified in this individual even though the amount of DNA sequenced was among the most in the program to date (some 465 Megabases of DNA were sequenced!)  It was anticipated that this individual would be an ideal candidate for the WTY program because he is within a subgroup of individuals that have the DYS-455 = 9 and DYS-YCAIIb = 20 STR marker combination.  While no new SNPs were identified we can still use this unique combination of STR-markers to formulate hypotheses on the geographical origin of this subgroup.

The origin of the I1d1 Haplogroup

If you are interested in this subject here are several websites that you should follow (all described below).  In summary, we P109+ folks originated somewhere in southern Sweden, on the border with present day Norway approximately 3,000 years ago.  Our “modal” haplotype (i.e., the haplotype of the individual who is considered our progenitor) is of the “Norse” variety according to Nordtvedt. Individuals with this Norse-STR signature tend to originate from the Norway/Sweden area; this is in contrast to “Ultra-Norse” (which would be centered more in western Norway), “Anglo-Saxon” (which would be spread across Denmark and Germany), or “Bothnian” (which would tend toward Finland).  This is consistent with Terry Robb’s analyses (see a description of his website below as well) showing a strong concentration of his “BBA” group in southern Sweden.

Sometime shortly after the L22 mutation appeared, the P109 mutation appeared.  While L22 occurred first, it is impossible to determine with any degree of certainty the length of time between these two events.   The next event was probably the mutation at DYS-455 from 8 repeat units to 9 repeat units, and from there YCAIIb mutated from 21 repeat units to 20 repeat units.  Regardless, a variety of migrations took place in Europe between the conception of the P109 mutation and the adoption of surnames.  We will attempt to use the information generated in the coming years to try to identify where the DYS-455=9 & YCAIIb=20 individuals may have been concentrated.

Description of Important Websites and Sources

Y-Chromosome Tree:  Family Tree DNA’s Draft Tree of Y-chromosome Haplogroups is a real-time representation of the Y-tree as new SNPs are added from the WTY program.  This tree is a continual work in progress and shows the most recent efforts to parse the tree.

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root

Y-DNA Haplogroup I-P109 Website:  A website dedicated to the I1-P109 Haplogroup.

http://p109.haplogroup.org

Terry Robb’s Website:  Terry Robb is another researcher with a personal interest in the I-tree but with a focus on ancient migrations.  It is an excellent website with an enormous amount of fantastic information regarding our flavor of I1 Y-chromosome.  If you review Terry’s work you'll notice that I1 seems to have originated in northern Germany, just south of Denmark.  We I1d1 folks would be classified as “BBA” within his nomenclature.  According to Terry’s work you can locate our BBA origin in the Oslo Fiord between Norway and Sweden; approximately 30% of I1d men (i.e., L22+) will also be positive for P109 (i.e., I1d1).

http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/

I1 Haplogroup Wiki:  Where would we all be without the Wiki? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA)

I-Haplogroup Information:  The I-Haplogroup Message Board on RootsWeb is an ongoing discussion regarding questions surrounding our Haplogroup (it is very active).  Much of the discussion surrounds issues unrelated to L22/P109, but there is always something to learn.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I

Other Projects to Join

You should also join 3 other projects as many of the people active in trying to piece together the I1 branches use the projects below as their source of data.  Future progress on piecing together both Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) trees will be driven by the hobbyist – why not facilitate those with the technical skills toward that end ... join the projects below!

British Isles Project:  http://www.familytreedna.com/public/BritishIsles/default.aspx/

I1-Project:  http://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I1

P109 Project:  http://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I-P109/


Our Story

So our story begins some 3,000 – 2,500 years ago, presumably on the shores of Sweden, possibly in the Oslo Fiord.  The male in whom the P109 mutation occurred was obviously successful.  Over the ensuing millennia his descendants spread.  It is logical that the next seminal event to create our cluster was probably the STR mutation that created DYS-455=9 because the diversity in YCAIIb is significantly more than that seen in DYS-455 (i.e., the DYS-455 mutation, as you will see, is exceedingly unique); however, throughout the ensuing discussion it is important to keep the following two concepts in mind:

Similar by Descent vs. Similar by State

The question of the time to ones Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA) really boils down to how far back you want to go.  While we clearly had a common ancestor with the R1b1a2 Haplogroup folks, that was probably some 50,000 years ago.  But why would we want to start there?  In our situation we will start with the definitive P109 mutation event.  As the generations passed, and the descendants of this P109 progenitor spread, the STR profile of these men changed randomly.  These mutations were both additions and subtractions at random STR-markers along theY-chromosome.  Because these are random events the possibility exists that after numerous generations two males that have not had a common ancestor in many generations appear to have the same STR-signature (i.e., they “arrived” at a similar state): these men are said to be Similar by State.  In contrast, my Y-chromosome signature is similar to my father’s, and his father’s before him, because I descend from that line: we are said to be Similar by Descent

Why is this important?  It is postulated above that the next seminal event was probably the DYS-455=9 mutation.  While this is logical, in reality we have absolutely NO idea what actually happened.  There are multiple pathways to achieve the STR-state of DYS-455=9 and YCAIIb=20. For example, in one line of P109+ males the DYS-455 could have mutated to 9 first, and then YCAIIb mutated to 20. In a different line of P109+ males YCAIIb could have mutated to 20 first, and then DYS-455 mutated to 9.  These two lines would have traveled different paths to arrive at the same state (i.e., Similar by State).  In fact, because these are random events there could have been multiple events … in our line both markers could have eventually mutated to 9 and 20, respectively, and then back to 8 and 21, respectively, and we would have no way of determining that it actually happened.  So, as you follow this project please always keep in mind that while STR-signatures may look similar, they may in fact be unrelated for the goals outlined herein. We have no idea where to start, and as you’ll see there are some individuals that may seem to depend from the P109+/DYS-455=9 & YCAIIb=20 male that started the EDMUNDSON-GRANT-THORNTON cluster, but their MRCA with this group is much further back in time … we have no way of making any of these determinations a priori, but we have to start somewhere!

Representative Populations

There are probably several million P109+ men in the world today (gross estimate … more of a WAG actually!)  The number of P109+ individuals that we have to evaluate (i.e., the individuals who have had their Y-chromosome characterized … all males in the various Y-DNA databases … our data set) is infinitesimally small … a grain of sand on the beach.  While this makes conclusions and comparisons difficult, such assessments are not altogether impossible.  The fact is that genetic genealogy and genetic anthropology are in their infancies. As more people have their Y-chromosome tested, the data set will expand.  There have been numerous studies published to date that use genetic markers to look for evidence of ancient migrations of populations; there are population studies ongoing today looking at the frequency distribution patterns of the various SNPs around the world.  All this information will be published in the coming decades.  The primary question this project attempts to answer is how best to use this information to evaluate from whence this EDMUNDSON-GRANT-THORNTON cluster (i.e., our P109+/DYS-455=9 & YCAIIb=20 clan) originated.  The purpose of this project is to be ready to understand the answer when it begins to reveal itself … and that may take sometime, so please be patient!

How Common is this Y-chromosome Signature?

In an attempt to provide an idea as to how common the P109+/DYS-455=9 & YCAIIb=20 signature is I have summarized below the number of occurrences in various FTDNA projects.  This list is by no means complete, and more importantly, you must keep in mind that in order to be able to ascertain the dual occurrence of both STR-markers a participant must have tested at least 37-markers.  Not everybodyin these projects has tested to this level. Regardless, it should be obvious that our signature is exceptionally rare.

Project

# Members

Approx # I/I1

DYS-455=9

DYS-455=9

&

YCAIIb=20

British Isles

4,680

500

7

6

I1-Haplogroup

3,497

3,497

29

13

I-P109+

97

96

5

5

Denmark

541

58

0

0

Finland

2,791

505

3

0

Ireland

4,518

295

2

1

Norway

634

105

0

0

Poland

1

0

Scotland

4475

375

3

2

Sweden

403

110

0

0

Viking DNA

471

135

1

1

Other STR-Markers Consistent within this Group

There are five STR-markers within our cluster that are also consistent across the group.  The table below shows these 5 markers and the change from the P109 modal.  In these cases the majority of members have show the mutation from the modal, while only a few members appear to have individual variations at these markers. 

STR-Marker

P109 Modal

DYS-455=9

&

YCAIIb=20

1.

DYS-19

14

è

15

2.

DYS-391

10

è

11

3.

DYS-449

28

è

29

4.

DYS-413b

25

è

24

5.

DYS-481

25

è

26


 

Surname Diversity of P109+/DYS-455=9& DYS-YCAIIb=20 Individuals

Preliminary mining of the various Y-DNA databases has been pursued in an effort to identify people fitting the strict criteria of having the DYS-455=9 and DYS-YCAIIb=20 signature.  To date, 66 people have been found with 13 different surnames.  Theree are a number of other individuals that might fit the necessary criteria, but they have not been tested to the degree that they can be appropriately assessed (i.e., they only have one of the two STR-markers, the other marker has not been reported).  The data is summarized as follows:

Surname

n

Different Surnames

THORNTON

42

1

EDMONDSON/GRANT

8

2

THORNTON NPEs*

8

4

Other

8

6

Total

66

13

Summary of Surnames

Primary

NPEs*

Secondary

EDMUNDSON (3)

ROSE (5)

ALLEN (1)

GRANT (5)

LEWIS (1)

GAINES (1)

THORNTON (39)

GREEN (1)

HARPER (1)

SNELSON (1)

McDANIEL (1)

NEWSAM (1)

RICHARDS (3)

*Known or suspected

THORNTON: The THORNTON group has by far the largest representation of individuals in this project.   There is significant STR-diversity within this group.  The furthest Genetic Distance between the WTY participant (Kit# 159230) and another THORNTON is 7 (e.g., Kit#201582).  The time between these two participants is probably 500-700 years.  Only two lines can be documented back to locations within the British Isles at this time, and only one line can be confirmed by testing living, native Brits:

     The Northamptonshire Group:  The WTY participant can be traced back to the southwestern corner of Northamptonshire to the mid 1700s.  We have several participants in the THORNTON-Northamptonshire group that actually live in the UK and can trace their THORNTON ancestors back to the mid-1600s to this corner of Northamptonshire.  This is the ONLY sighting of the P109+/DYS-455=9 & YCAIIb=20 Y-chromosome signature we have in the UK today.

     Immigrant William Group:  “The Gloucester Immigrant” William THORNTON [b. c1621] has been traced back to Ryvington, Lancashire by Bob Thornton.  However, we do not yet have a living participant in the project to confirm the presence of our Y-chromosome in this geographical location.

EDMUNDSON/GRANT:  The hallmark of the EDMUNDSON-GRANT group is the DYS-458=16 & DYS-437=15 signature.  Because of the co-occurrence of these two STR-markers in both surnames they have been grouped together.  Presumably, either these mutations occurred prior to the adoption of surnames and the different lines adopted different surnames, or one of these lines is a NPE of the other.  What is most interesting in this group is Kit# 76724 – this participant is a Genetic Distance of 5 from one of the other EDMUNDSON participants over 37-markers (i.e., this Genetic Distance is consistent with the very deep ancestry of this surname).

THORNTON NPEs

RICHARDS:  While RICHARDS is DYS455/9 &YCAIIb/20, there appear to be significant differences between the I1d1 folks and these participants

NEWSAM:  While NEWSAM is DYS455/9 &YCAIIb/20, there are again significant differences between the I1d1 folks andthis participant.  In addition, there are 2 other NEWSOME participants that are DYS455/9 & YACIIb/21 suggesting that the NEWSAM YCAIIb/20 event may have been independent of the one associated withour group.