S1194-CTS4528-A8039

All R1b-S1194 and lower sub-clades (CTS4528, A8039)
  • 83 members

About us


This project is a special focus project for the SNPs of S1194 and below (A8039, CTS4528/DF100, etc: ) .  If you are not positive for any of these SNPs or subSNPs, you should  find an alternate project that does focus on your terminal SNP or allocated Haplogroup.

The goal of the project is to look deeper into the origins of S1194 and CTS4528/DF100. So, if you have either SNP please feel free to join.  It is also highly recommended that you join the R1b Basal Subclades project https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about :  


A very brief history of R1b-M269:

Put forward as a story that may be true based on current knowledge but is likely to change as more information becomes available. The overall history is covered well by Prof David Anthony in the link to his works given below - See story 2 - pages 39-70. As at Jan 2018, the views given in the below link are a good representation of recent ancient DNA discoveries. Not everyone would yet agree that R1b reached Bohemia via the Hungarian Plains. That belief, expressed in the below link by Prof David Anthony, requires proof that is not yet available but may emerge as part of a study currently under way covering ancient DNA from burials in the Hungarian Plains & Danube valley.

https://www.academia.edu/35405459/Archaeology_and_Language_Why_Archaeologists_Care_About_the_Indo-European_Problem--in_European_Archaeology_as_Anthropology_Essays_in_Memory_of_Bernard_Wailes_ed_by_P.J._Crabtree_and_P._Bogucki


R1b-M269 from the Pontic/Caspian Steppes to the Sth Baltic and elsewhere:

(The following diagrams are the work of Edward Peggler and 1st preseneted here http://armchairprehistory.com/2017/11/12/proto-indo-european-homelands-ancient-genetic-clues-at-last/  Edward has granted us permission to this project to use his diagrams and extracts of his notes. Please do not copy or link to them without his permission).

The Yamna (pit grave culture) from the Caspian Pontic Steppes and in the region of Samara (near Volgograd Russia) migrated in one or more waves into Europe. It is believed this sweep into Europe occured in a very short timeframe. Some researchers suggest it was in as little as 200-300 years.

(click link for image)
http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/pie-anthony.gif

Yamnaya peoples, at the time, were an admixture of WHG (Western Hunter Gatherers), EHG (Eastern Hunter Gatherers who in turn were an admixture that included WHG + ANE (Ancient North Eurasians)). Yamna also show admixture with CHG (Caucasus Hunter Gatherer). The R1 Y-DNA line appears to have come from the ANE who were known to be in Siberia. The oldest R burial found to date is from Mal'ta in Siberia at 24,000 YBP. Ancient branches of R1 DNA is found in an estimated 30% of North American Indian Tribes.


Graphical representations of the emergence of the Yamna (pit-grave culture)

(click link for image)

http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/A7000-BC-gene-map-s.gif

http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/4000-BC-gene-map.gif

http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/C3000-BC-gene-map-s.gif


Yamnaya peoples became a core contributor/component of the Cordedware Culture. This culture spanned Germany/Bohemia to Russia (beyond Moscow). The Western end of the Cordedware culture region contains R1b burials whereas the bulk of Cordedware burials tend to be R1a DNA.


The Yamnaya contribution to the Cordedware Culture

At the Western End of the Cordedware Culture a later highly influential culture emerged called the Unetice Culture in Bohemia. Today that area is covered by both Czech Republic and Slovakia.

http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/D2000-BC-gene-map-s-1.gif

(The below diagram comes with these notes from Edward Peggler's blog site  "Back in the 1980s two linguists, a Georgian, Tamaz Gamkrelidze, and a Russian, Vyacheslav Ivanov, made the case that the Proto-Indo-European homeland was in eastern Anatolia or NW Iran. Their model has the western dialects of Indo-European (Celtic, Italic, Balto-Slavic and Germanic) and Tocharian, what I’ll call North Caspian IE, coming from the steppe. However the precursors of North Caspian IE are argued to have come from a homeland south of the Caucasus.")

http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/backmap.gif


The emergence of R1b-P312 & R1b-U106 and R1b-S1194:

At some point (this still needs a lot more research) the three main R1b clades of R1b-P312 & R1b-U106 & R1b-S1194 began to 'evolve' in the sense of establishing an identity. That identity is coming from ancient DNA burials. This may have been in the area of the Unetice Culture or later. If it was earlier then a lot more evidence from ancient burials is needed to show this as we don't have that evidence today. It is hoped that as new ancient DNA finds occur, they will help clarify where the parent SNP of these 3 clades emerged. It is the SNP L11 (also called L151, P310, P311, L11). No ancient burials show L11 any further towards Samara (Pontic/Caspian Steppes) than north western Ukraine.  Until L11 DNA is found closer to Samara, the assumption is that L11 evolved or only establoished a strong presence during the Yamnaya migration and not before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#/media/File:Hallstatt_LaTene.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture#/media/File:Hallstatt.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unetice_culture


R1b-P312 & Hallstatt / La Tene.  R1b-U106 and Jutland.  R1b-S1194 and the Sth Baltic.

In very general Terms it is commonly accepted that R1b-P312 became established and expanded from the Hallstatt & La Tene Culture regions in the areas of Austria / Switzerland. A branch of these people (R1b-U152) moved into Italy.  Another branch DF27 shows up in the UK. Other branches (DF19 & ZZ337) also appear in other parts of Europe. The name Celtic tends to be associated with R1b-P312 but there were tribes of R1b-P312 DNA people who were clearly not part of known Celtic cultures.  However as a generalization Celtic can be used to describe them to help keep definitions simple. 

It is also considered that R1b-U106 became established at the base of the Jutland Peninsula in what has been both Denmark and Germany (today the core area is Schleswig-Holstein). R1b-U106 remains very strong in that region today. R1b-U106 is thought of as Scandinavian/Germanic. R1b-U106 is also dense in the north of the Netherlands and also Northern Germany particularly in the areas called Frisia or Friesland. The English language is believed to have more in common with old Frisian than with old Saxon.

Just where R1b-S1194 became established and expanded from is still being determined but a 2010 study by N Myres et al, suggested two places in Europe (as distinct from the island of the UK where S1194 exists), where L11* had strong pockets. One was the Sth Baltic region and the other was in the Sth Alps region.  The deep question here is which of these two places might R1b-S1194 have expanded out of to reach the other. Different people have different views on this. A prevailing view suggests the Sth Alps pocket were later tribal migrations from the Sth Baltic in line with known historical narratives. However the question is not settled to everyone's satisfaction.

The more data that comes to hand, the better we will be able to locate the points of origin and expansion for S1194.  Until better evidence emerges, this project team accept the Sth Baltic as the probable point of expansion.



17 Jan 2018:


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S1194 Group:
Family Tree DNA are nearing completion of their upgrade to Human Reference Genome 38, which has involved providing more detail on BigY tests. Currently this detail isn't being used to its full advantage. To properly investigate this data, James Kane, Alex Williamson and Iain McDonald have set up a data repository, to which they are asking any willing persons within R-S1194 to upload the raw VCF/BED data from their next-generation sequencing tests (BigY, YElite, WGS, etc.):
Please visit this link = http://www.haplogroup-r.org/submit_data.php
Instructions and a description of how we agree to use your data are available on the above website. If you are unable to follow these instructions, use the instructions on Iain McDonald's website. 
http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/instructions.html
We would also ask that Full Genomes Corp. testers re-submit their YElite/WGS data once a Build 38 version becomes available.

This database is already collecting data on R-P312 and R-U106 testers. Incorporating data from R-S1194 testers will allow us to compare the three main branches of R-L11 to each other in an unbiased way.

While we are in earliest stages of this analysis now, ultimately, we hope this will allow us to systematically explore R-S1194 in proper context with R-P312 and R-U106 in a relatively unbiased way, answering questions such as: "Do branches of R-S1194 share the same distributions as branches of R-U106?", and "Which branches of R-S1194 formed at the same time as branches of R-P312?".

James Kane:                http://www.haplogroup-r.org/
Alex Williamson:           http://ytree.net/
Iain McDonald:             http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics.html
Doug Marker:               https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/df100-cts4528-l11-p310-l151-p311/about/background

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11 Jan 2015:

The project is making good progress on establishing the best tests to take in order to get a clearer picture of where in the growing DF100/CTS4528 tree we fit.  You are invited to join our facebook forum here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/southbalticdna/   -  Title: South Baltic DNA - L11/P310/P311/L151

The FB group is for sharing information with other 'rare DNA' members and most of us are DF100/CTS4528. We have members who administer other projects and in particular a member who handles DF100/CTS4528 for both ISOGG and the ftDNA Ht35 project.

This month Jan, we have begun creating a list of tests DF100/CTS4528 people can take to help them find where they belong in our emerging tree. We are also working on a future project to correlate known old family names to areas of probability of origin in UK, Holland, Sth Baltic areas (Denmark, Sweden, Germany & Poland) plus Sth Italian Alps). 

You are also welcome to look at our repository of useful information here: 

http://www.southbalticmodalhaplotype.org/


17 Nov 2014: 

At this time it has become pretty well apparent that if a person is + for either one of DF100 or CTS4528 then both *can be assumed*.  If at a future time someone emerges who is negative for one but not the other then we may again request that both tests be taken but for now, doing both tests as add-ons becomes an unnecessary cost, however, if some wants to buy both they are welcome to do so.  In time it is assumed that newer testing chips will fix the discrepancy where only one or the other is tested (i.e. as is the case with the NatGeo Genome2 test which tests for CTS4528 but not for DF100).  Big-Y does test for both.

This diagram comes from the HT35new project and is reproduced in part here (Just the CTS4528 DF100 part) with their kind permission.

http://www.cts4528.org/Maps-Diags/files/cts4528b.jpg

16 Dec 2014: 

This is a link to some very useful research done on DF100/CTS4528 plus R1b in general, by Michael Maglio (of Origin Hunters). The link covers some recent interesting research on R1b DNA back-flow to the Lebanon area that strongly indicates how L11 (P311) DNA was more likely taken to those areas within  the past 1,000 years and that R1b Crusaders were the ones taking it there. Michael argues the case quite well, that L11 (P311) DNA that shows up in Armenia/Anatolia/Lebanon needs careful checking so as not to make the mistake of assuming this DNA has been in these places longer than it really was which runs the very strong risk of confusing the origins and historical migration of R1b into Europe from these areas in the near East. Michael uses STR variance to position people within their haplogroup and tells a very convincing story of where he sees R1b (and particularly in his earlier work - our DF100-CTS4528), originated and spread from around the South Baltic to near east and not necessarily the other way round.

http://originhunters.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/atrocities-and-assimilation-crusader.html


Thankyou.

Project Administrator.