R-FGC13899 and subclades- Background



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FGC13899 is a SNP that has recently been found to define a major subclade immediately below R-Z251. (R-Z251, in turn, is a subclade of R-L21.) FGC13899 likely dates back almost as far as Z251 itself. The common ancestor of all FGC13899+ men may have lived as far back as 3500 years ago.

Within R-FGC13899, one large, closely related group is the 251-1130 cluster (originally called the 1130-A2 cluster), which was first identified several years ago by one of the administrators of the L21 project. Based on similarity of Y-STR haplotypes, all members of this cluster share a common ancestor within the past 1500 years or so. The second cluster now known to fall within FGC13899 is the 251-z1124-9 cluster, most members of which share a surname and who are likely related to one another within the past 500-700 years. All members of these two clusters are expected to be FGC13899+, but there will likely also be a significant number of FGC13899+ people who do not fall into either of these clusters. Anyone who has tested Z251+ but who doesn't clearly fall into another subclade of Z251 may benefit from testing FGC13899.

A241 is one of many SNPs discovered through Big Y testing of two 251-1130 cluster members. A241 is a subclade of FGC13899. (See Mike W's R1b-L21 Descendant Tree for a visual representation.) It appears some fraction of the 251-1130 cluster will also be positive for A241 and some fraction of the 251-1130 cluster (along with the rest of R-FGC13899) will be negative. Further testing will be needed to determine exactly how this and other SNPs divide up the cluster.

Update (July 11): A member of the DYS390=25, DYS534=15 branch of the 251-1130 cluster has received an A241- result. This shows that the SNP A241 occurred after the 251-1130 cluster originated, and it's likely that everyone on the DYS390=25 branch will be A241-. There are another 20 or so SNPs (including those that have been named A242 through A258) shared between the two cluster members who have Big Y results, and it will take some additional research before we know the order in which these occurred and which SNPs define the cluster as a whole. If you are interested in participating in this research, please contact the group administrator.

Geographically, the 251-1130 cluster appears most strongly associated with Wales. There is a preponderance of patronymic Welsh names among cluster members, though non-Welsh names also appear. Based on preliminary research, it appears 1-2% of Welsh men will belong to the cluster, while cluster members with origins outside of Wales will be relatively rare.

My best guess is that FGC13899 itself originated on the continent, probably in what is now France or Germany, something like 3000 or 3500 years ago. Some branches will have remained on the continent, and some branches (including the one leading to the 251-1130 cluster) will have ended up in Britain, through Celtic or other migrations.

Some goals of this project include:

  • determining more precisely when and where the common ancestor of the 251-1130 cluster lived, as well as learning more about the earlier history of R-FGC13899

  • identifying the major branches within the 251-1130 cluster, and R-FGC13899 more generally
  • ultimately, to be able to construct a tree showing exactly how the various members of the 251-1130 cluster are connected, and how the various groups within R-FGC13899 connect to one another
If you (or a kit you manage) are a member of the 251-1130 cluster, or have received a positive result for FGC13899 or any SNP known to fall below FGC13899, please:

1. Join the project by clicking "Join Request" on the menu bar above.

2. Quoting from the Z251 project:

Update your paternal origins information from the “MyAccount” menu after logged into your myFTDNA web page. Select “Most Distant Ancestors” and complete the information for your “Paternal Direct” most distant (oldest) ancestor. Please enter only information that is not speculative. Enter first and last names, birth year and as specific a birth and origin location as you can in the “Name” field. For example, “James Welch, b.c.1812, Co. Kilkenny, Ireland”. For the “Country of Origin” field, please be as specific as possible. For instance, rather than select “United Kingdom” please pick either Northern Ireland, Scotland, England or Wales if you know that information. Add the latitude and longitude information as well so that the automatic maps can be drawn properly.

3. Ideally, upgrade to 67 or 111 Y STR markers, if you have not already done so. The more people who upgrade, the better chance we have of clearly sorting people within the cluster.

4. Consider participating in SNP discovery through Big Y. This option is not cheap, but it's the only way to discover new SNPs specific to your lineage, and we will likely need several more 251-1130 people to participate in Big Y before we're able to get an accurate picture of the branching structure within the cluster.

General Fund

Current balance: $0.00

Project Stats

Statistic Type Count
Big Y 35
Combined GEDCOMs Uploaded 23
DISTINCT mtDNA Haplogroups 33
DISTINCT Y-DNA Confirmed Haplogroups 26
DISTINCT Y-DNA Predicted Haplogroups 0
Family Finder 46
Genographic 2.0 Transfers 10
Maternal Ancestor Information 77
mtDNA 33
mtDNA Full Sequence 27
mtDNA Plus 31
mtDNA Subgroups 0
Paternal Ancestor Information 100
Predicted Y-DNA Haplogroups 49
Total Members 120
Unpredicted Y-DNA Haplogroups 0
Unreturned Kits 1
Y-DNA Deep Clade (After 2008) 14
Y-DNA Deep Clade (Prior to 2008) 7
Y-DNA Subgroups 31
Y-DNA111 43
Y-DNA12 117
Y-DNA25 116
Y-DNA37 114
Y-DNA67 84