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First results were a surprise. The Y line (Male lineages) of the first two Cakebread families tested were of different Haplogroups!
This suggests that they may have started independently or one or more could have begun from a maternal Cakebread.
One of these Lines shows a very close link with a different surname suggesting a divergence 450 years ago.
The results for the Middlesex branch were sent to John McEwan who is researching the R1 Haplogroup and he wrote back saying-
As an aside I see your DYS492=13 and this usually indicates S21+ or haplogroup R1b1c9. Now I also have to say something else, I hope you are not offended, but your haplotype is very unusual for R1b1c. It must be very rare or there is a data entry error. Could you please cross check it with your FTDNA entry? I found Rhodes EGGH8 which is a GD=5 of 5 away on 37 markers and his ancestors also came from England (Lancashire to be exact). The rest are very distant. The entry is even more unusual for a potential S21+, in fact it is unusual enough to maybe even affect the whole groups age estimate.
If you get the chance and are financially able I would also test for S21 and S28 SNPs at Ethnoancestry. This of course is only if you are interested.
The real question is just where this haplotype originated and is there another as yet unsampled group out there? The close match suggests an English origin, but S21+ is thought to have originated from the region North of the Rhine and especially north of the Elbe and in England is coincident with an Anglo-saxon invasion origin into England between the 5th and 10th century. This probably sampled the “western” portion of S21 and there is a haplotype cluster called Frisian that is also solidly S21+. I therefore went to Yhrd and searched your haplotype (with the small number of markers they use) and got two matches out of 40,000 odd samples: 1 in Stuttgart Germany and 1 in Wroclaw Poland. The 7 1 step mismatches also all came from the region north of the Rhine stretching from Hamburg to Keiv and most frequent (n=2) from Poland. This fits the picture of a central north European origin consistent with a S21+ SNP genotype (if confirmed).
It also asks the question of whether your family has a more recent connection to Germany/Poland for instance in the last 400 years.
Hope this has been useful
John McEwan
SNP test from Ethnoancestry in. The result for Middlesex branch is S29+/U198+
This was sent to John McEwan. This is what he had to say:-
What a discovery S29+ !!!!!
This will set the (DNA/Rootsweb)list buzzing, S29+ was until recently thought to be a recent mutation limited to Britain, the first person turned up yesterday with S29+ from Germany and your unusual haplotype really sets things humming. This will make estimates of this group very old, and estimates of S21 increase as well.
When I finish updating the table I will try and summarise all these results.
Some have felt S29+ is a native ancestral group from pre-roman Britain. My feeling is the group is quite old and based on your matches I think may have originated in Eastern Europe and have several strands.
Cheers
John McEwan
The Cakebread DNA Project has linked up with the S29 Y-DNA Project to further our goals in this line of research. Go to the links page at www.cakebread.page.tl to find out more.
This suggests that they may have started independently or one or more could have begun from a maternal Cakebread.
One of these Lines shows a very close link with a different surname suggesting a divergence 450 years ago.
The results for the Middlesex branch were sent to John McEwan who is researching the R1 Haplogroup and he wrote back saying-
As an aside I see your DYS492=13 and this usually indicates S21+ or haplogroup R1b1c9. Now I also have to say something else, I hope you are not offended, but your haplotype is very unusual for R1b1c. It must be very rare or there is a data entry error. Could you please cross check it with your FTDNA entry? I found Rhodes EGGH8 which is a GD=5 of 5 away on 37 markers and his ancestors also came from England (Lancashire to be exact). The rest are very distant. The entry is even more unusual for a potential S21+, in fact it is unusual enough to maybe even affect the whole groups age estimate.
If you get the chance and are financially able I would also test for S21 and S28 SNPs at Ethnoancestry. This of course is only if you are interested.
The real question is just where this haplotype originated and is there another as yet unsampled group out there? The close match suggests an English origin, but S21+ is thought to have originated from the region North of the Rhine and especially north of the Elbe and in England is coincident with an Anglo-saxon invasion origin into England between the 5th and 10th century. This probably sampled the “western” portion of S21 and there is a haplotype cluster called Frisian that is also solidly S21+. I therefore went to Yhrd and searched your haplotype (with the small number of markers they use) and got two matches out of 40,000 odd samples: 1 in Stuttgart Germany and 1 in Wroclaw Poland. The 7 1 step mismatches also all came from the region north of the Rhine stretching from Hamburg to Keiv and most frequent (n=2) from Poland. This fits the picture of a central north European origin consistent with a S21+ SNP genotype (if confirmed).
It also asks the question of whether your family has a more recent connection to Germany/Poland for instance in the last 400 years.
Hope this has been useful
John McEwan
SNP test from Ethnoancestry in. The result for Middlesex branch is S29+/U198+
This was sent to John McEwan. This is what he had to say:-
What a discovery S29+ !!!!!
This will set the (DNA/Rootsweb)list buzzing, S29+ was until recently thought to be a recent mutation limited to Britain, the first person turned up yesterday with S29+ from Germany and your unusual haplotype really sets things humming. This will make estimates of this group very old, and estimates of S21 increase as well.
When I finish updating the table I will try and summarise all these results.
Some have felt S29+ is a native ancestral group from pre-roman Britain. My feeling is the group is quite old and based on your matches I think may have originated in Eastern Europe and have several strands.
Cheers
John McEwan
The Cakebread DNA Project has linked up with the S29 Y-DNA Project to further our goals in this line of research. Go to the links page at www.cakebread.page.tl to find out more.