R-M343 (M73- M269-) DNA Project - News

From: Vince Vizachero
Date: 9 January 2011 
Subject: [R1b1*] January Update

Happy New Year Everyone,

In addition to the two new SNPs I mentioned last month, FTDNA is now working on another one that should be of interest to many of you.  The marker is called V69, and one of the new markers published in the landmark paper by Cruciani et al. last year.

V69 will be of interest to those who are V88+ and especially those of you who have African-American ancestry.  The Cruciani study found V69 exclusively among their African samples, but they also had a lot fewer European and Asian samples than we have.  Cruciani has graciously donated two V69+ control samples, and FTDNA is working on the SNPs as we speak.  We are also testing both samples for 67 Y-STR markers, which will greatly assist our ability to cluster and analyze the members of our project.  Stay tuned for more on this front.

In the mean time, I'll make my standard plea:  if you have just 12 or 25  STRs tested, PLEASE consider upgrading to 37 or more.  Upgrading might help you find more matches in the FTDNA database, and it will definitely help us resolve some of the uncertainties about the history of this haplogroup.

Also, if you can afford it, I encourage you to consider making a contribution to our project's general fund.  I use these funds to selectively test useful markers or, in many cases, help underwrite important testing for participants that cannot afford to do it on their own.  Every little bit helps:


Thanks for your support.



From: Vince Vizachero
Date: 4 December 2010 
Subject: [R1b1] December Update

Hi everyone,

I've been meaning to send out an update to the group, and some recent developments have finally given me some new data to share.

Earlier this year, two of our members undertook a cutting edge test - called WTY, or Walk the Y - at FTDNA in an effort to discover some new SNPs within the R1b haplogroup. Unfortunately, this effort did not pay any dividends.

Happily, several of our members have understaken testing at 23andMe and an analysis of their raw data - especially that of one of our newest members - has led to the identification of two new SNPs that I expect to be quite useful within our group.

The two new markers are rs9786532 and rs1358368 (the short names for the new SNPs are L388 and L389).

These markers are still considered somewhat "experimental" in the sense that we will need to test them on more people before we can be sure of precisely where they occur on the genealogy and of how reliable they are.

But a preliminary analysis suggests that the new markers are parallel to V88 in the tree, and that everyone in our project who is negative for V88 will be POSITIVE for one or both of these new markers.

In other words, if my preliminary analysis is correct then we will have no more undifferentiated R1b1*: everyone will be R1b1a or R1b1b.

I've posted a cladogram that shows the relationship of these new markers for those of you who have 67 Y-STRs completed:


The color coding should help you find yourself in the tree, but I've also updated the project's grouping system to reflect (tentatively) the new structure:


Your distant cousins in haplogroups R-M73 and R-M269 are also positive for these new SNPs.

If you frequent any forums or online lists you may see these new SNPs discussed, but I wanted you to be the first to know about them.



From: Vince Vizachero
Date: 13 May 2010 
Subject: [R1b1*] May Update

Hi All,

I want to give you some results from some of the new SNPs we've tested in the project.  There are a couple of folks still waiting on their results for V88, but I feel pretty confident about things for the most part.

Thanks to everyone who ordered V88 at my request.  That data really helps put things into perspective. and I hope soon to present a little more user-friendly analysis of what it all means.  But for now . . . 

I've reorganized the project's results to reflect the new findings.  You can see them at the project website:


Just as a reminder, the current ISOGG tree has three identified subclades of R1b1.

R1b1a is currently defined by the new marker V88.

R1b1b is currently defined by the marker P297.  This clade is not included in our project.

R1b1c is currently defined by the marker M335.

So, if you are V88+ then you are in subclade R1b1a.  This will now include about 70% of our project.

There is still a small group of men who were found to be V88- and also negative for other SNPs.  This group remains R1b1*.

The final group is V88- also, but they are still waiting on the last set of results from their DeepClade tests.  FTDNA has found two men who are not in the project who are M335+, and those two men appear to be closely related to our three guys.  For the moment, I'm working under the assumption that our final three men are also M335+ so they are R1b1c.

Those of you with 67 marker results can find your kit numbers in a cladogram that shows the relationship of the different subclades of R1b1. 


In this chart I've positioned P297, M335, and V88 where the appear to occur.  I suspect there is an undiscovered SNP that will unite V88 and M335.  There may also be one that unites P297 with M335/V88, though this is less certain.



Vince Vizachero
Date: 23 April 2010 
Subject: V88 Update

We've got our first batch of V88 results back, including yours, and I wanted to provide a little update to you quick adopters.  You can see your own results on your personal page at FTDNA (check the bottom of the "Haplotree" tab).

We got four results for V88 itself.

One kit from cluster A3 was negative for V88, as was one kit from cluster B1.

On the other hand, one kit from cluster B2b* was positive for V88, as was one kit from B2b1.

This result is essentially what I expected:  I think V88 will define a subclade of R1b1 that roughly corresponds to our B2 or B2b clusters.  However we will have a few weeks wait for V88 results from the B2a guys, and ultimately we will want a couple results in each cluster just to be sure of how things relate.

But I think this preliminarily confirms our clustering and, along with some other data recently published, that V88 reflects a deep phylogeographic split in R1b1.  I'm deducing that R1b1 first appeared in the northern part of southwest Asia (e.g. Iraq/Iran) while V88 first arose in an R1b1 population living just a little further south (e.g. the Levant or Arabia).  It will be interesting to see if this holds up.

Using the haplotypes in the project, I estimate the TMRCA of R-V88 to be about 10,000  years ago.  That is about the time that cluster B1 diverged from cluster B2, and also about the time that cluster B2a diverged from cluster B2b.

We also have results for one kit from cluster B2b1 who tested V35, V7, and V8 and was negative for all three.  They are all downstream of V88, so we will eventually want to circle around and get all the V88+ men tested for them.  The were all rare in the Cruciani testing, but our project has a much better cross-section of R1b1 than they did outside of Africa

V7 and V35 will be most relevant for those with Eurasian ancestry, while V8 and V69 (which FTDNA doesn't yet offer) will me most relevant for those with African or African-American ancestry.

Thanks again for testing.  We'll be getting more results over the next couple weeks, and I'll send a general update to the group when there is more data.

As always, send me questions.