All R1b-S1194 and lower sub-clades (CTS4528, A8039)
  • 110 members
Are you a member of the S1194-CTS4528-A8039 project?
Paweł Rozmarynowski Paweł Rozmarynowski has a question!
August 2 @ 7:29pm
Hello all! My name is Paweł, and although my haplogroup does not suit your group, I would like to ask about a few questions and read your opinion as people who are familiar with the topic Z2103. I have already addressed this topic on another forum, so I will help myself with the text already written. I hope that I do not clutter the forum - I am only asking for help :) I would like to write and ask you for your opinion on SNP BY-593. On many genetic forums, etc., you can meet with the opinion that By-583 / L23EE / V2986 is a typical Slavic R1B. Why? In my opinion, apart from the fact that it is mostly found in Poland, there is no indication of it. Since R-Z2109, we have the most samples from Western countries, such as Germany, Ireland, Italy, England, etc. Of course, the eastern / southern countries appear in smaller numbers. The situation (with slight changes in Western countries) is the same in subsequent SNPs such as CTS7822, CTS7556, Y5592, CTS9219. From Y18959, Poland and the Czech Republic are moving forward. We also have a certain amount of Sweden and Finland in By593. There are more Swedes than, for example, Russians or Croats. Both the TRMCA and other data indicate that By593 appears in Poland in the period when the Germanic tribes ruled here. Samples from Scandinavia show some links between regions. Another argument - the first known Z2103 in Poland we know from Bell Beakers burials in southern Poland. Z2103 is also known from the graves of Bell Beakers in Hungary. This indicates that Z2103 and its SNP in Poland may be much older than the Slavs. All websites - FTDNA, Ancestry etc. show me a lot of connections with Silesia and the Czech Republic. GEDMatch and its ancient calculators show me practically nothing but connections to Western Europe, including Bell Beakeers / Unetice / Lusitian culture / Nordic BA. Mytrueancestry shows me a lot of matches also in the Czech Republic and southern / western Poland, chromologically from the Bronze Age to the Middle Ages. There are also areas around Bavaria, Slovakia and Switzerland. As far as we know, the Z2103 may have migrated to Western Europe with the yamna culture and then the tumulus / unetice culture. Even though the overall Z2103 is typical of eastern and southern Europe, this small part may have been part of other, larger migrations. This could explain my large ties with the British Isles and Western Europe, and closer to Central Europe and Southern Poland. If the above is true, By593 is not a Slavic haplogroup, but only a slaved one. It would have more to do with Celtic / Germanic groups. This situation can be explained in part by the fact that there are more trials in the west than in the east. But that doesn't really explain everything. The trend remains in Western Europe anyway. By593 I would not have much connection with nomadic tribes, such as the Sarmatians. Their main haplogroup (including Ossetians etc.) is Y5586. In conclusion, in my opinion, By593 and its older footages are a small family that came to Central Europe in the Bronze Age and then migrated as part of larger groups to Western and Northern Europe. Looking at the matches / SNP map, its more distant connections would coincide with the Migration Period - then also a small part of this family would join the Wandering Germanans and spread fewer matches all over Europe. Most of the family, however, remained in southern Poland and the Czech Republic, as we can see today. We know that Poland was not completely abandoned during the Migration Period. What do you think? Best wishes, Paweł R.
Paweł Rozmarynowski
August 21 @ 6:05am
Thank you for all the answers :) I would like to ask you something else. Currently, in FTDNA, the largest number of people with the haplogroup CTS7556, Y5592, CTS1450 were found in Central and Western Europe. Below these haplogroups are Y18959 and Y5587, from which my By593 and FGC43625 are derived, mainly concentrated in Poland and the Czech Republic, and also in Sweden etc. The question is for Y5586 - this is the typical eastern SNP below Y5587. It is grouped among the Ossetians and also discovered among the former Sarmatians. It can be strongly associated with steppe populations. So how is it possible that eg By5587 and earlier CTS9219 etc. are mainly in Central and Central Europe and Y5586 is typical of nomads? Can we talk about reverse migration? Where, for example, Z2110, CTS7556 etc. came to Western Europe, and Y5586 later migrated eastward again to form nomadic tribes? And one more question about the Yamna culture. We know a lot of the Z2103 from this culture. We know that bell beakers discovered in Hungary and Poland were strongly genetically related to yamna and had Z2103. But what could this SNP ultimately be? Z2103 is too old. Could it be Y5587? Y5587 forms 4400 BP, TMRCA 4400 BP. But his paternal SNPs that are older have virtually the same dates according to YFull: Y18959 - 4400, TMRCA 4400 BP, CTS1450 - 4400, TMRCA 4400 BP, Y5592 - 4700, TMRCA 4400 BP. How is this possible?
Douglas Marker
August 21 @ 5:04pm
Pawel, The only SNP you really need worry about is R1b-L23 - it is the parent of L51 and Z2103. The problem is that R1b was all over Europe but all of the non-L23 died out (except for 1 or 2 very rare Asian lines). So unless you know of a Z2103 that is older than this one => (I0443 R1b1a2a L23 W3a1a Lopatino, Samara 3300-2700 BCE). then that is the region that L23 and any meaningful story begins. We know there were Older R1b in Villabruna Italy (which is currently the oldest known R1b, and recently extended to approx 17K ybp). Old R1b also shows in Iberia (Spain), Romania, Serbia, Dereivka Ukraine, Khvalynsk Russia, Samara Russia, and at the Baltic Sea in Latvia (Narva culture). So it is quite possible that L23's parent came from Latvia to Samara or perhaps from Serbia or from Dereivka or was already there at Samara. The issue re pre L23 is 'who cares', as those R1b lines died out other than R1b-L23. We can see that L23 currently starts at Samara in the middle Volga. We can see Z2103 travelling to Afanasievo in Mongolia, we can see Z2103 travelling to the Balkans, we can see Z2103 in the Carpathian basin (as Yamnaya), we can see Z2103 in Khazakstan we can see Z2103 in the near east, etc etc. But Bell Beaker & Cordedware do *not* show large numbers of Z2103. If they do, they are likely to be outliers from the Carpathian Basin from the Yamnaya there who we also know traded extensively with Cordedware & later Bell Beakers who were in what is Bohemia/Austria/Switzerland. I am not 100% on top of the later sub-clades of Z2103. What I do know is that Z2109 is one of those sub-clades and I have a member in one of my projects whose ancestors went from France to Louisiana (Cajuns). We jokingly tell him he is our Cajun Yamnaya. He proves that some Z2103 did move into Europe but only in tiny numbers.
Douglas Marker
August 21 @ 5:31pm
Pawel - here is your position in the FTDNA tree. look at this link http://www.s1194.org/Images/ftdna/Pawel.jpg
Douglas Marker
August 24 @ 1:43am
Pawel, Below is a screen grab and also a link to where the screen grab came from. Have a look. Helps understand where Z2103 was mostly found (Armenia). 1st is the screen grab of the site = http://www.s1194.org/Images/ftdna/countries-z2103.jpg ------------------ 2nd is the link to the site = https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-Z2103
Joachim Koch Joachim Koch
October 27, 2019 @ 12:05pm
After I ordered a 30x coverage WGS at Dante Labs in Oktober 2018. It took a year to get the WGS BAM. It was hg19. It took me one more week of non stop computing time to by the FASTA files align a new BAM with hg38 (p12). This BAM has 92 GB. I now extracted the data for the mtDNA and yDNA only. This BAM has 1.7 GB. I uploaded it to Google Drive and ordered an interpretation at YFull with a link to Google Drive. Is there anything I should do in this project to promote our aims? (Currently I´m tested CTS4528 at FTDNA and also my Y67 STRs are noted in this project.)
Joachim Koch
October 29, 2019 @ 7:36am
My preliminary determination by YFull is R-FGC23887. EDIT: Will be in a new subclade of this called BY195505.
Joachim Koch
December 11, 2019 @ 3:40pm
I now got my STRs. 663 STRs were determined. Anyone that collects data for the project wants them?
J B Cole J B Cole
November 24, 2018 @ 4:41pm
I am new to this group: I manage Y-111 and Big Y-500 dna kits for my brother who results are currently haplogroup R-FGC23894. We are looking for clues to our Great Grandfather's heritage!
1 Comment
Douglas Marker
November 25, 2018 @ 10:02pm
Janet - as you have gathered at the FB site we run - your line down to FGC23894 matches the Adams, the Welkers, The Areys. You are in esteemed company with the Adams line.
C Adams
November 30, 2018 @ 5:36pm
Janet, I'm Susan, the contact for my uncle, C K Adams. I see FTDNA has identified 4 additional SNPs shared by your brother and my uncle- FGC23887, FGC23896, FGC23901 and FGC23905. They chose to display the FGC23887 SNP on the spreadsheets. Even with these 4 SNPs. our two lines probably still separated 3,000 or more years ago. My Adams line was in Somersetshire, England by the early 1500s CE.
Joachim Koch
October 31, 2019 @ 7:51pm
I also have FGC23887. Central Germany (Northern border of Thuringia) back to beginning of 16th century.
Joachim Koch
December 11, 2019 @ 3:35pm
Janet, J B Cole and me will form a new created subclade BY195505 at YFull with the next update. The path will be: R(1b) > (...) > CTS4528 > S14328 > A4869 > S1196 > S6868 > FGC23894 > FGC23887 > BY195505
Douglas Marker Douglas Marker
October 13, 2019 @ 4:38pm
14 October 2019: There are some really interesting new developments emerging as to the actual origin of R1b-L151 (parent to P312-U106-S1194-A80523). For the past few years, we have been told that the line came from the Yamnaya and like originated in the Samara Valley. One line of argument (Prof David Anthony) was that L51 likely came into the Carpathian Basin via the Black Sea coast, then traveled up the Danube & then the Rhine. Over time, some of us citizen scientists questioned this path. In recent times we have had access to some very powerful data such as all the ancient burials found and one tool interactively showed each known ancient burial as a time slider was moved along the bottom. This tool exposed a flaw in the L51 via the Carpathian Basin hypothesis. This was that no L51 ancient burials could be found between the Samara Valley and the Carpathian Basin while Z2103 and I2 burials could be found. The logical conclusion from this was that they could not be found because there were none. New data emerging in August 2019 has also given us our 1st L51 burials in Germany that show R1b found in a Cordedware context. Prior to this only R1a Y-DNA was found in reliable Cordedware sites. So now we have evidence that R1b was in the western areas of Cordeware. Another conclusion being drawn and one that now looks like it will be in published papers in the coming months is that R1b-L151 was not part of Yamnaya - it now seems that Z2103 and I2 were Yamnaya but L51 wasn't. L51 and Z2103 are brother clades under L23. It is apparent that R1b-L51 and possibly R1b-L51-L151 were already in the Baltic Russian region before the Yamnaya moved into the Carpathian Basin. This is a significant change in our understanding and will be closely followed in the coming months as more data gets published and bam files released. As of 14th Oct 2019. The oldest S1194 burial finds are from the Faroe Islands in greater Scandinavia. This was published recently. One possibility as to R1b-L51 is that it was part of the Fatyanovo Culture of Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatyanovo%E2%80%93Balanovo_culture
Joachim Koch
October 27, 2019 @ 12:31pm
„The logical conclusion from this was that they could not be found because there were none.“: That´s one possibility. But I can not agree to that as a logical conclusion. We have the same problem in the opposite direction. We have a lot of ancient DNA finds from Western, Central and Northern Europe from pre-Yamnaya times. And none of them is R1b-L51. Corded Ware Culture is Yamnaya-derived btw, with a proportion of 75% autosomal DNA from Yamnaya.
September 17, 2019 @ 7:46pm
Here is a sign, via autosomal DNA, of my direct paternal line being German as of 200 years ago . This matches what my genealogy found. 23andme shows me as 4% from the very region of France (Alsace=Grand Est) that is right next to Landau, Germany just across the border. My autosomal DNA and genealogy shows that I am otherwise Iberian except for a bit of Basque French (near Spain) and Italian (Genoa). I believe that the only place this French/German ancestry could have come from would be my direct paternal line represented in my Y-DNA haplogroup (R-Y22442). My geneology has shown this including a last name change from Kuss to Cruz. Of course, this only states that my haplogroup was present in that area 200 years ago, although it would probably have been present in many other places.
Douglas Marker
September 19, 2019 @ 6:35am
Interestingly there are many people esp in the new world who have strong links back to that area. Many were part of the mass exodus that occurred out of the Palatine region. Something like 12,000 people fled the region when pushed out by French troops in around 1709 - see this story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Palatines
Douglas Marker
September 19, 2019 @ 6:36am
The Palatine Germans are quite prolific and there are still groups in England and Ireland as well as those who went to the US East Coast from England in the 1700s.
September 23, 2019 @ 7:52pm
Thank you for the link, Douglas. Mine were Catholics that left Germany in the late 1740s to early 1750s and wound up in British South Carolina for a short time and then on to Saint Augustine Florida (a Spanish settlement) in 1753 until 1764 when they wound up in Cuba.
Edward Sherrick Edward Sherrick
July 31, 2019 @ 3:14pm
Hi was wondering if anyone on here knew the other name for SNP RS22519?
Douglas Marker
September 19, 2019 @ 6:26am
Edward, that is the only name (per YBrowse database) - is it your S1194 terminal haplogroup ? - I have been interacting a lot recently with Cathy Swizer re the Sherrick DNA on our FB group = South Baltic DNA - L11/P310/P311/L151
Douglas Marker
September 19, 2019 @ 4:38pm
Edward, today I added a story at our FB site as to a new member from Norway who has a similar rare S1194 DNA line (S1194=>A8472) that the Sherrick line have. The starnge part is that despite both being the rare A8472 line, your TMRCA is still 3-4 thousand years ago.
Douglas Marker Douglas Marker
September 19, 2019 @ 6:30am
This is a list of names from the S1194 branch of L151. They are L151=S1194=>A8039 which is parallel to L151=>S1194=>CTS4528
Frederic Harmand Frederic Harmand
July 29, 2019 @ 1:31pm
For those interested , an interesting study concerning ancient DNA from Viking population show that 2 s1194 individuals children from XIth cent. ,very close to CTS4528, were found in Sandur church nave, Sandoy, Faroe Islands. That 's rather interesting hints for origin of the CTS4528 haplogroup. see "Population genomics of the Viking world (bioxiv, 2019, Copenhagen)" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1
Edward Sherrick
July 31, 2019 @ 4:33pm
I read it and found it to be pretty good. My fathers dna shows a wee bit of Sweden. I figure that is his deep ancestry. On the map I see The Faroe Islands are inbetween Iceland and Scotland or Great Britain. That does fit nicely in my dads genetic makeup.
Douglas Marker
September 19, 2019 @ 6:19am
I made up a list of those who match the Faroe Island finds - I will post it here tomorrow. They are all A8039 which is under S1194 but parallel to CTS4528/DF100/S1200.
Douglas Marker Douglas Marker
February 4, 2019 @ 4:20pm
Here is the link to the major project called the R1b Big Tree. As posted earlier, we arranged with the P312 & U106 projects to have us S1194 included in their detailed analysis. We did this because those 2 projects were so much bigger than ours and they have much better resources. I will post a screen grab plus a link to their work. Quite a few S1194 folk have submitted their BigY BAM files.
Dale Heatherington
February 4, 2019 @ 6:23pm
Douglas, do you know when/if the Big Tree plans to get around to calculating dates for the subclades within S1194? thanks, Ann H
Douglas Marker
February 7, 2019 @ 2:15pm
Anne, no I haven't heard of plans to do that. I will ask Alex.
Douglas Marker Douglas Marker
February 1, 2019 @ 7:50pm
A February 2019 update has been made to the FTDNA Project Page. It highlights new information relating to the possible origin of R1b-P312 + R1b-U106 + R1b-S1194 being in the area of the Northern European Plains and not in the Carpathian Basin (this is work in progress and not statements of fact). https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/df100-cts4528-l11-p310-l151-p311/about/background