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S1194-CTS4528-A8039

All R1b-S1194 and lower sub-clades (CTS4528, A8039)
  • 88 members
Are you a member of the S1194-CTS4528-A8039 project?
D Heatherington D Heatherington
May 11 @ 11:43am
I manage this kit for my brother. His terminal SNP is A8309 with nothing but 30-something "private" SNP's downstream. His best STR matches are to four men named "Atherton" (or close variants) and one Faircloth, all of whose ancestors originated in Lancashire sometime prior to the year 1600. I wanted to find out if these people might also be positive for A8039. One Atherton gentleman agreed to test for the single SNP A8039, at my expense. His result just came back and he is indeed A8039. This is very exciting to me, both for personal genealogical reasons and because it looks like an opportunity to learn a lot more about A8039 and its subclades. I want to order Big-Y for Mr. Atherton but I am not rich. Admins: Does this group have any money in the general fund that could be applied to the cost of a Big-Y test for Mr. Atherton? Thank you. Ann H.
Douglas Marker
May 14 @ 1:41am
Sorry but we don't have any such funds. However you must be pleased at the A8309 find - I will delve deeper when time permits. Admin.
D Heatherington
May 14 @ 11:35am
Douglas-- OK. Thank you for responding and yes, I am pleased about the find. I should mention that besides the five Atherton/Faircloth men who who show up as STR matches to my brother, there are another four men in the Atherton group who just miss being a match by one or two STR's. So that gives a total of *ten* men who either have been proven A8039 or are likely to be. And from what I can tell of the trees I have seen, most cannot be close cousins (no more recent than the late 1700's and at least one pair does not converge until prior to 1400). The Atherton family were landed gentry in Lancashire, thus their family line is recorded. So the paper trail is unusually good a long ways back and could be potentially used to date some of the SNP's downstream from A8039.
Melvin Schmidt Melvin Schmidt
March 24 @ 6:05pm
This is my paternal grandfather as young and older
D Heatherington
March 26 @ 4:10pm
Do you mean he was born 1839?
Douglas Marker
April 7 @ 9:08pm
Melvin, I have your entry in our project and see you are a new unique member - a very very rare branch the splits off before L151 which is is before the big branches of P312 & U106 and before S1194 as well. I will create a new place in our project listing ahead of Hallissey & place you there. Your line is so new. The L51 split from the L151 cluster as best I know, was only found last year. Again unique. Cheers Doug Marker
Melvin Schmidt
April 10 @ 10:54pm
yes, 1839
Douglas Marker Douglas Marker
Admin
February 11 @ 1:38pm
More information on the Combined R1b L11 project we are participating in with the P312 & U106 projects. EXTRACT: "Producing an automated next-generation Y-DNA phylogenetic tree Premise: We aim to produce an open-source software package that can be used by Y-DNA professional and amateur researchers, which combines many of the existing tools and techniques available to the community. The package is designed so that it takes raw data in and compresses it into a small database for fast operations, cross-compares kits to produce a Y-SNP-based phylogeny, overlays Y-STR data onto that phylogeny and performs haplogroup estimation, overlays submitted geographical data onto each kit and computes migration pathways, and uses molecular clocks to associate nodes of the phylogenetic tree with historical periods. Taken together, this allows the researcher to chart the spread and diversification of a haplogroup through its migrations. The package will be run on R-L11, the major European haplogroup R1b clade, before being made available more widely. Motivation and background: This project was borne out of two needs: a need to allow users to compare their Y-DNA results to understand their place in the phylogenetic tree, and a need to put that tree in a geographical and historical context. Most of the leading testing companies do not allow proper cross-comparison of datasets, and the academic community has not ventured into the small-scale population differences of these minor clades in any statistical sense. Yet there is a pressing desire for people taking Y-DNA tests to understand their family's ancient societal and migrational history. There are a number of tools made available by individual researchers, but none have been peer-reviewed, and there is considerable onus on people using these tools to provide ongoing curation of data. We want to combine these tools, submit their theory for peer review, and automate the processes linking them together. These processes include the haplotree creation and age analysis we have provided for R-U106 and R-P312 Build 37 BigY tests from Family Tree DNA, but also links together haplogroup prediction and geographical migration. The combination allows us to look at migration in a much more homogeneous context than we would otherwise be able to do, and provides an automated analysis with minimal curation for professional and amateur researchers going into the future." http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/build38.html
Douglas Marker Douglas Marker
February 5 @ 3:46pm
This is an update (19Jan2018) from the team working on the new combined database (P312, U106 & S1194). This effort is why we need to support the combined project as we S1194 are going to be the biggest beneficiaries (because we are so tiny in numbers & effort by comparison). From Iain McDonald: "Update: 19 Jan 2018: The code is being re-written in Python, backed by an SQL-based database structure. Helping me in this venture are Jef Treece and Zak Jones, with additional input from Harald Alvestrand and David Stumpf. Currently, we are working on two issues: finalising the database architecture, and generalising and automating the problem of haplotree creation. While the new version of the code is designed to take data for a variety of sources, it is currently anticipated that we will first generate a haplotree from R-L11 (U106+P312+S1194) BigY Build 38 data as a proof-of-concept, before extending this to data from other companies (and potentially other haplogroups). Once that is complete, we will get the age analysis and other analyses back up and running."
Douglas Marker Douglas Marker
February 5 @ 3:27pm
This is a document prepared by Iain McDonald (admin at U106 project) and is very helpful for anyone interested in understanding ancient DNA finds. Iain has grouped the current known data into ages (by page) and on each page shows the three groups of most interest to us (P310/P311 & P312 & U106). We S1194 are likely to be among the P310/P311 entries but this aspect is being further analysed. We have a joint project (see post below) with U106 & P312 and us S1194 where we are providing our VCF/BED data to a common project to help position us all and this report from Ian McDonald now mentions S1194 as the third brother. Again, it is reasonable to expect that as more data is sent into our common project, we can better identify S1194 among other haplogroups so we encourage everyone to send their VCF/BED data from FTDNA or FGC into the joint project. If anyone is unsure what a VCF/BED file is or where to find their own - please either ask here or email me and I will guide you to where it can be found. In the below report, look at the top left on each page to see the numbers of P310/P311 finds (P312 & U106 are also listed). Again, in time we believe some of these P310/P311 will be identified as S1194 peoples. Analysis of Ancient DNA http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/report-2017-ancient-revised.pdf
Douglas Marker Douglas Marker
Admin
January 16 @ 10:32pm
****************************************************************** To all in the S1194 Group: Family Tree DNA are nearing completion of their upgrade to Human Reference Genome 38, which has involved providing more detail on BigY tests. Currently this detail isn't being used to its full advantage. To properly investigate this data, James Kane, Alex Williamson and Iain McDonald have set up a data repository, to which they are asking any willing persons within R-S1194 to upload the raw VCF/BED data from their next-generation sequencing tests (BigY, YElite, WGS, etc.): Please visit this link = http://www.haplogroup-r.org/submit_data.php Instructions and a description of how we agree to use your data are available on the above website. If you are unable to follow these instructions, use the instructions on Iain McDonald's website. http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/instructions.html We would also ask that Full Genomes Corp. testers re-submit their YElite/WGS data once a Build 38 version becomes available. This database is already collecting data on R-P312 and R-U106 testers. Incorporating data from R-S1194 testers will allow us to compare the three main branches of R-L11 to each other in an unbiased way. While we are in earliest stages of this analysis now, ultimately, we hope this will allow us to systematically explore R-S1194 in proper context with R-P312 and R-U106 in a relatively unbiased way, answering questions such as: "Do branches of R-S1194 share the same distributions as branches of R-U106?", and "Which branches of R-S1194 formed at the same time as branches of R-P312?". James Kane: http://www.haplogroup-r.org/ Alex Williamson: http://ytree.net/ Iain McDonald: http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics.html Doug Marker: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/df100-cts4528-l11-p310-l151-p311/about/background ******************************************************************
D Heatherington
January 17 @ 7:50pm
Data uploaded.
Douglas Marker
January 18 @ 3:21pm
It is great to see just how many S1194 people have responded. It will help us greatly in positioning us alongside U106 and P312.
Douglas Marker Douglas Marker
Admin
January 15 @ 6:39pm
Information about the Codedware and the Unetice Cultures ... Cordedware EXTRACT: "The Corded Ware culture (German: Schnurkeramik; French: céramique cordée; Dutch: touwbekercultuur) comprises a broad Indo-European archaeological horizon of Europe between c. 2900 BCE – circa 2350 BCE, thus from the late Neolithic, through the Copper Age, and ending in the early Bronze Age.[2] Corded Ware culture encompassed a vast area, from the Rhine on the west to the Volga in the east, occupying parts of Northern Europe, Central Europe and Eastern Europe. According to Haak et al. (2017), the Corded Ware was genetically strongly related to the Yamna culture (or Yamnaya), "documenting a massive migration into the heartland of Europe from its eastern periphery," the Eurasiatic steppes.[3] The Corded Ware culture may have disseminated the Proto-Germanic and Proto-Balto-Slavic Indo-European languages. The Corded Ware Culture also shows genetic affinity with the later Sintashta culture, where the proto-Indo-Iranian language may have originated.[1]" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture *************************************************** Unetice EXTRACT: "Today, the Únětice culture is considered to be part of a wider pan-European cultural phenomenon, arising gradually between the second half of the third and at the beginning of second millennium.[41][22] According to Pokutta, "The role of the Únětice Culture in the formation of Bronze Age Europe cannot be overrated. The rise and the existence of this original, expansive and dynamic populations mark one of the most interesting moments in European prehistory." The influence of this culture covered much larger areas mainly due to intensive exchange.[23] Únětice pottery and bronzes are thus found in Britain, Ireland, Scandinavia, Italy as well as the Balkans." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unetice_culture
Douglas Marker Douglas Marker
Admin
January 15 @ 5:37pm
The history of R1b underwent a revolution between 2014 and 2017 in that a series of papers have been published that re-tell the origin of R1b in Europe. A few years ago it was commonly accepted that R1b came to Europe from Anatolia with the EEF (Early European Farmers) approx 7000-6500 ybp (years before present). Then in 2013/4 research carried out by a David Reich and an Eske Willerslev at seperate research centres (USA & Denmark), showed that R1b in Europe swept in during an incredibly short period around 5000-4500 ybp. The source of this R1b DNA was identified as the people from the Pontic Steppes known as Yamna or Yamnaya. Some call them Steppes Nomads. They are regarded as the 1st people to exploit the Horse, the wheel and carried our future language. An award winning book about them was written in 2007 by Prof David Anthony (The Horse, the wheel and language). He wrote a revision paper in 2015 and in the past couple of months a further update. (see bottom for links). This link is to a blog post that sums up the Yamnaya expansion very well. It is well researched and well diagramed. An excellent read. http://armchairprehistory.com/2017/11/12/proto-indo-european-homelands-ancient-genetic-clues-at-last/ The Yamnya DNA was identified as both R1a (North Yamnaya) and R1b (South Yamnaya). The North Yamnya R1a people spread through Russia from a general homeland at Samara (near Volgograd (used to be Stalingrad)). They also spread to Nth India. However, the R1b appear to have spread possibly two ways into Europe - one case argues that the Yamnaya came up the Danube Valley and into the Hungarian Plains. This is called the South Carpathian route. There are 1000s of 'Kurgan' mounds in the east of those plains. They are believed to be from Yamnaya peoples. A project is currently under way to analayse the ancient DNA of burials in these areas to see it it can be proved just which R1b migrated that way. That story was recently given a boost by Prof David Anthony who wrote a new paper in late 2017 arguing that this was how R1b reached Sth Germany/Poland and Bohemia (Czech Republic / Slovakia). The other path to Bohemia, is via Ukraine/Belarus & Poland. This is called the North Carpathian route. Up until Prof Anthony published his recent paper, this was considered the actual path taken by R1b that then split into R1b-P312, R1b-U106 and likely R1b-S1194. These 3 branches may have expanded out of the Unetice Culture centered in Bohemia and a follow on from the Cordedware Culture that was there before Unetice. We S1194 people may have emerged from the Unetice culture, but more ancient DNA evidence is needed to prove this. It is possible that R1b-U106 and R1b-S1194 moved to the Sth Baltic at about the same time. R1b-U106 then expanded into Scandinavia and also into the Nth Netherlands as well as remaining around the Sth Baltic. R1a tend to be strong in the Nth Baltic and Russian regions. There are some Nordic R1a sub-clades just as there are some Nordic P312 sub-clades, so the region was a mix of peoples. There was already a big pocket (still is) of I+ dna in the Scandinavian areas particularly I1. The biggest density of I1 today is around Stockholm Sweden. R1b-U106 is today densest in the Nth Netherlands and flows up the Jutland peninsula to Norway in decresing %s. A matching DNA (R1b-U106-L48) is also strong on the east coast of England. That DNA can be associated with the movement of Angles, Saxons & Frisians from over the Nth sea Jutland & Friesland). What has created a lot of interest re the Yamnaya migrations is that it all happened so quickly based on ancient DNA finds. Some researchers argue it only took 200-300 years. Also, it is now regarded as highl;y probable that the PIE (Proto Indo European) languages came with the Yamnaya migrations into Europe. European DNA is today regarded as being of 3 core sources: WHG (Western Hunter Gatherers), EEF (Early European Farmers) and Steppes invaders who are a blend of (WHG, EHG & ANE - Western Hunter Gatherers, Eastern Hunter Gatherers and Ancient North Eurasians). As of today, R1b and decendants are by far the greater numbers of males in the world compared to R1a (in total). R1a dominates in Russia and many bordering countries. R1b dominates in western Europe and of course the new world countries that so many R1b migrated to. Admin Link to 2015 revision of the book 'The Horse, the wheel & Language' by Prof David Anthony ... http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-linguist-030514-124812 Link to 2017 paper where Prof David Anthony claims that R1b in Western Europe came via the hungarian plains (note not everyone agrees yet - some argue that without any current ancient DNA to prove it the claim is still open) ... https://www.academia.edu/35405459/Archaeology_and_Language_Why_Archaeologists_Care_About_the_Indo-European_Problem--in_European_Archaeology_as_Anthropology_Essays_in_Memory_of_Bernard_Wailes_ed_by_P.J._Crabtree_and_P._Bogucki *************** Another excellent research paper with highly relevant and up-to-date information. ... https://www.sciencenews.org/article/how-asian-nomadic-herders-built-new-bronze-age-cultures
D Heatherington
January 15 @ 6:32pm
I looked it up and found that the Unetice culture is named for a village northwest of Prague. I visited Prague on a college trip in 1979. I liked their beer. Now I see-- it's genetic. :-) Ann H.
Douglas Marker Douglas Marker
Admin
January 15 @ 6:29pm
The story about us, really starts with the Unetice Culture as this culture is regarded as pivotal to the emergence of R1b-P312 & R1b-U106 and also likely R1b-S1194. The Unetice Culture emerged after the Cordedware Culture that is believed to have come out of the Yamnaya migrations. From Unetice we begin to see the origins of so called Celtic influence (Hallstatt & La Tene cultures) and R1b-U106 (Scandinavian & Germanic tribes). R1b-S1194 is likely to be closely associated with either P312 or U106. There is already some evidence that S1194 has a closer association with U106 tribes but more data is needed to help clarify this. During 2018 this project will work with the U106 & P312 projects to help position us S1194 people in perspective with those two. I will post details soon on how we can help this future study by providing our S1194 DNA data to a shared database they other two projects have set up. Watch this space.
Douglas Marker Douglas Marker
Admin
January 15 @ 5:36pm
Hi for 2018 - have just checked all new joins and moved each into the appropriate section of the list. Also there has been a wealth of information during 2017 and up to this month as more ancient DNA results are published. I will do a summary write up of the mostimportant aspects that help tell a story of how we S1194 (incl DF100 / CTS4528) people likely emerged. The story has become much clearer in 2017. Admin