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Group Administrator: Roberta Estes restes@comcast.net
Group Co-Administrator: Jerry Crumly a-celt@cox.net

Project Surnames:

Cromley	Cromly	Crumbley	Crumbly
Crumley	Crumlich	Crumlick	Crumly
Gramlich	Gramlick

Project Background:

This project was begun to sort the various Crumley/Crumly/Crumbley and derivative spellings in the United States. Eventually, we'd like to be able to find where the various lines immigrated from. For the latest haplogroup and deep ancestry info, see project news.

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Project Goals:

1. To determine if the James Crumley (b 1712/20 in England, died 1794 Frederick Co Va.) and George Crumley/Gramlich (1740-1806) lines are connected. (They are not)
2. To determine if various Crumley lines are connected in the US.
3. To determine if Crumley lines are connected historically, before immigration and finally...
4. To determine the homeland, and hopefully, home city of the Crumley lines.

Here is a sampling of lines we wish to test. If you descend from these lines, we need you!!!

1. James Crumley born 1712/20 in England, died 1794 in Frederick Co Va (have participant from this line now)
2. George Gramlich/Crumley (1740-1806)(have participant from this line now)
3. John W. Crumley
4. Martin Gramlich
5. Valentine Gramlich
6. Adam Crumlich (Pa to Wayne Co Ohio)
7. Adam Crumley, Berkeley Co., Va.

Project News:

A James Crumley descendant has been kind enough to have his deep ancestry tested and this test is representative of all of the James Crumley line. While this isn't particularly useful from a genealogy perspective, it is most interesting from an anthropology perspective. In this case, anthropology is defined as the migration of people before the advent of last names.

I did a quick analysis of his results, and I'm sending them on to the list with his permission. I added some new links as well (so Larry, read this too).

This Crumley line is in the haplogroup, or clan, called I1b2a, formerly called both I2 and I1c. This may be somewhat confusing, but Family Tree DNA
(ftdna) for very good reasons is still using the YCC haplotree, but at ISOGG we have gone ahead and incorporated the newer terminology that we anticipate will be accepted by the YCC at their next meeting whenever that might be.

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI07.html

Here is the Y-SNP tree - to summarize for you, the snps you do and don't have show that you are I1b2a because you have the M223 SNP. You have not been tested for the downstream SNPs that could further define you. Not all of these are offered as part of a package. Recently FTDNA has begun offering boutique testing for specific snps.

I need to read up to figure more. I do recall that there is a specific snp that would tell us if our specific flavor of the haplogroup originated in England or overseas. It's all a matter of timing of course, because we came from someplace in western Europe before England.

Here is a great paper about the I haplogroup and it has a nice distribution map of I1b2 in it.

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v75_Semino.pdf

Anyway, this is what we know about it, without further testing of some of the other SNPS that might isolate the location further.

This haplogroup originated in Europe. We know that our forefather overwintered the last ice age, the glacial maximum, in the Iberian peninsula, as the ice prevented migration further north and to the Mediterranean. This haplogroup is not found elsewhere in the world. It probably originated in the Iberian/Baltic area and the haplogroup as a whole is not highly populous today. This is a good thing for us as it eliminates spurious matches. However, it also means it gets less press and research that the larger groups.

Here's a nice link to the Iberian peninsula.

http://images.google.com/images?q=iberian+peninsula&hl=en&lr=&sa=X&oi=images
&ct=title

And here's the wikipedia entry for the Iberian Peninsula.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Iberian_Peninsula

And some interesting history.

http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/eurvoya/Iberian.html

Remember, we were there 10,000 to 12,000 years ago during the last ice age, so our anthropological cousins are still there today and our ancestors may have been there when these historical events were occurring. We don't know when our ancestors migrated to Great Britain. Many people that were not Anglo, Celtic or Viking came with the Roman Armys, some as slaves or mercenaries, during the Roman occupations.

Project Results:

So far only 2 separate Crumley lines have been identified, James and George, both of East Tennessee.

The original goal was to determine if the early Crumley men, James (b 1712/20 Yorkshire, England, died 1794 Frederick Co Va, married Catherine Gilkey) and George (b 1806 Germany d 1806 Sullivan Co., Tn, wife Elizabeth may be second wife), were related. Both of these men (and or their descendants) lived in Tennessee, in the Claiborne and Hancock county area, and the Lee Co Va area, at one time or another. This is partly what led us to think that they might be related, along with some similar names, and it also makes it almost impossible to tell the descendants apart after both lines entered the same geographic area.

We found a descendant of James to test, participant 1 (P1).

We found a descendant of George, participant 2 (P2).

Their DNA tests were definitive that they do NOT descend from a common ancestor, so George and James were not related.

Typically in DNA testing, we try to verify that the results are accurate by testing, if possible, from two entirely different lines from the oldest known ancestor.

Therefore, James had another son, and our third participant (P3)also represents the James line but descended from a different son than P1 descends from. This assures us that James DNA really looks the same as what P1's DNA looks like - that there was not an undocumented adoption in his line.

Since P1 and P3, the two descendants of James Crumley match (within the normal mutation expectations) match, then we know that James DNA really is what we thought it was.

A second descendant of George has not yet come forth to be tested. We would need a descendant from a different child of George,if possible. P2 descends from George's son George.

Until we are able to verify George's DNA with a second participant, we won't know for sure. However, until we are able to verify this, we will operate on the assumption that this is accurate, because it most likely is accurate.

Now, for people who might not know which Crumley line they descend from, or anyone else doing genealogy and they have hit a Crumley brick wall, they can test and see which of these lines they match. If they don't match either line, then we have a new line represented. This new line could be a different immigrant ancestor, or an undocumented adoption in either George's or James line. Paper genealogy combined with DNA results will help us determine what actually occurred.

I hope this helps unravel the discussion about DNA testing, already obtained results, and testing for new participants.

DNA Test Results (mtDNA) for Project Members